Sprinklers

[JohnP]

newshound [e-mail]> wrote in news:qo-dnd [e-mail]:

Grenfell should have had a Dry Riser.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa]

Thing is, I went to school in the 1960s and my secondary school had sprinklers all over it. Seems a bit odd if some still do not have them to me, maybe it was very old. Brian

[nightjar]

Although, in the case of a dry sprinkler system, the gas is not pat of the fire suppression system. It simply keeps the pipework under pressure until a sprinkler head is activated. The drop in pressure releases a valve that allows water into the pipework. They are mainly used in unheated areas where there is a risk that, if the pipes were kept full of water, it could freeze.

[newshound]

No, Grenfell should *not* have had that disastrous cladding.

[nightjar]

A fire resistant window to the flat where the fire started would have avoided it getting to the cladding.

[newshound]

True, though I am not sure how easy that is to engineer. OK, wired glass would work, but that's not so nice for residential accomodation. I guess "bulletproof" glass would provide 30 minute or better resistance, but would standard sealed double glazing work even in metal frames? (I'm not sure exactly what did fail).

[nightjar]

AIUI the plastic frames melted, allowing the glass to drop out.

Fire rated windows are commercially available in 30 mins 60 mins, 120 mins and even 180 mins ratings. This is one company offering fire rated windows:

There are various ways to get fire resistant glass. This is one:

[Andrew]

All the windows were replaced as part of the refurb. It was the incorrect expanding PU foam sealant around the frame perimeter that allowed the kitchen fire to get out into the external cladding, where it spread rapidly.

[JohnP]

"Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" [e-mail]> wrote in news:rlei8j$9b4$ [e-mail]:

My other idea - after seeing firefighter playing their hoses on the outside of buildings - A metal pipe - several metres in length - a sort of "battering ram" with a hose connection on the back end and jet holes around the circumference toward the opposite end. Poke it into the building and turn on the water to provide a deluge on the inside.

[nightjar]

The poor quality of the installation suggests that they went for the lowest quote, which would not have been to fit fire resistant windows.

[newshound]

Very interesting, thanks. Not cheap, though, I guess. And I'm sure it will come out in the enquiry how the whole refurb was based on minimum quotes.

Does this perhaps mean that for blocks still insulated with "dangerous" panels one option would be just to replace the windows with fire resistant ones?

[JohnP]

"Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" [e-mail]> wrote in news:rlei8j$9b4$ [e-mail]:

Many modern schools are such flimsy buildings that they probably wouldn't support the pipes!

[nightjar]

From a technical point of view, it probably would. However, it is unlikely it would allay the residents' fears.

[Paul]

We had a brick-clad school here burn to the ground years ago. Around 1974 or so.

It turns out the wall insulation was flammable. Oops.

No amount of water could put out that fire. It raced through the walls and false ceiling at breakneck speed. The firemen mounted a roof attack, but they had to retreat because their estimate of what would be a safe place to saw open the roof, was way off. They got off the roof before it collapsed, so they were well clear of that fortunately. No close call. But once they did the maths, there was no place to mount a second attack.

The school might well have had sprinklers, but all they would do is wet the sheetrock walls, and not touch the fire inside the walls at all.

The next day, all they had left to do, was knock down the few remaining sections of intact brick wall.

Just as important as sprinklers, is enforcing some kind of building code. I guess nobody had a look inside the walls, to see what was in there.

They built a school to replace it (they don't always do that). The new school had brick cladding, because, you know, it doesn't burn :-/

Paul

[#Paul]

No. It was to protect the rest of the building if you accidentally developed superpowers whilst your atomic nuclei were being magnetically resonanated.

#Paul

[newshound]

True. But I would be happy to live in one if a good proportion of windows had been replaced, or if it was a block with decent stairwell forced ventilation. I'd have smoke detectors, and would get out at any sign of fire or alarm.

[Andrew]

Which was the argument against water bombing the burning Notre Dame from a helicopter

[Andrew]

There have been more than one total-loss fires in the UK involving quite new blocks of flats. Either they had incorrect fire-stopping where pipes pass through floors or missing/inadequate cavity fire barriers, or both.

Plasterboard/sheetrock should have 60 minute fire resistance (depending on construction), so it comes back to piss-poor supervision of people making holes for pipes and cables, notably works done long after construction. The best building codes in the world won't stop an electricion or network installer destroying the fire integrity long after it was built.

[Jimk]

You kept quiet about the Prince Albert then?