We need a new shower. The bathroom is below a flat roof so the only way to get pipes to the shower is round and through walls - very unsightly.
We currently have an electric Dolphin 1000 shower which my nephew described as "running round the bath catching the drips". This runs straight off the mains. It is not too bad in the summer, but in the winter when the mains water gets colder, it is absolute c**p. Reducing the size and holes of the shower head helps a bit, but it is still bad.
My question is how can we have a more powerful shower? It seems we can only have an electric one. If so, what is the most powerful one you can get? I have only seen 10.8kw. Are any brands better than others or should I steer clear of any?
Forgot to mention, had the water pressure tested and flow rate was +20 litres per minute (minimum guideline value 9) pressure was 35-40 metres head of water (m.g.v. 10)
Why do you consider an electric shower to be the only option? They are the option of last resort, it is rare not to have some sort of alternative in most cases.
We have a combi boiler that can heat the immersion heater. The pipes from here to the bathroom were probably installed the same time as the flat roof and come down the wall. It is not possible to run any more pipes this way as the flat roof restricts access. I have been told the existing pipes to the hot taps cannot be used for a shower which must have its own supply.
I am hoping an electric shower is not the only option which is why I am asking. We had someone round to look at it and he told us that for a power shower we had to run new pipes round/through walls because of the flat roof above. There is another small room between the bathroom and where the pitched roof starts. The shower is nearly on the most external part of the bathroom.
I am in the process of having my ensuite redone. Did have a shower cubicle with an electric shower, but have gone for a bath. Purchased (off eBay) a combined thermostatic bath / shower mixer. This means I can fill the bath or take a shower at a set temperature, no extra plumbing needed either. Runs off a combi boiler and the water pressure is okay for the shower to work fine. Cost was about £70.00 for the thermostatic taps, and shower kit. My plumber was quite impressed by it.
You could have a system using a hidden thermostatic mixing valve. Then the existing pipework for the electric shower is attached to the output of that mixer, which is supplied by a twin impellor pump that also boosts the bath taps. The electric shower is then replaced by a simple on/off/flow setting valve and a shower head. The only disadvantage is (a) finding a suitably pretty valve and (b) the temperature setting is fixed at the valve (which is probably installed under the bath) and doesn't allow personal preferences to be set easily.
Alternatively, you can normally chase out brickwork/blockword/plaster deep enough to bury 15mm pipework in the walls.
Something doesn't sound quite right with that description...
Immersion heaters are usually supplemental electric heating elements installed in a hot water tank to provide backup in case of boiler failure or for transient quicker reheat.
Do you have a hot water tank?
Combis are not _normally_ installed with a hot water tank (there are exceptions, before someone corrects me on the detail) but instead when you turn a hot water tap on the boiler fires into life and provides instantaneous hot water that doesn't run out (as opposed to a tank which will eventually run cold). Is this the case when you turn on your bath hot tap?
The other type of boiler is a system boiler, which generally has a single water circuit which is directed either to the heating, or to a coil in the hot water tank which then heats the hot water.
What's the make & model of the boiler?
If it is a combi & your bath hot tap takes hot water directly from that then you can't have a power shower attached to it - against water regs. If it's all coming from a hot water tank then i don't see why the same pipework as the taps cannot be used, but it may have something to do with how these pipes are tapped off the tank - others will be able to advise on that.
Sorry, I am good at calling things wrong names. I do have a hot water tank. I thought a combi boiler heated up the central heating and the hot tank...Wrong! The boiler is a Potterton PrimaF 60. Sounds like a system boiler? I think it was a British Gas plumber who said we could not use the existing pipes from the hot tank that currently feed the bathroom hot taps.
The cold bath and sink taps do not run from the mains. The British Gas person implied it was a legal thing that prevented the existing pipes being used by a shower. I can't quite remember, but I think it had to do with pressure and possible leaks.
ok, that's good news from your point of view - a combi boiler with the bath hot tap taking water directly from that would have been a silver bullet to the idea of a pumped power shower.
As for the legailty of the situation, that's news to me as the cold tap also draws from the header tank (if I remember another of your posts correctly) but then plumbing isn't my primary area of expertise! Others could doubtless enlighten you.
To be honest, my first course of action in your situation would be to get a second opinion from a small independent plumber. BG have a lousy reputation when it comes to talking up jobs and high quotes.
A small anecdote to illustrate the point. A friend of ours - a Professional lady (no - no that sort!) with little knowledge of heating - had her heating or hot water pack up last winter. She had an old boiler, and when BG were called to it their engineer scratched his head and pronounced it dead, with no hope of getting the parts. A complete new system was to be the answer, at a quoted cost of some £2,500 + VAT. I put her in touch with a local plumbers merchant/heating engineers local to her that I'd used in the past for a second opinion. The bloke turned up the next day, took one look at it and said "well, it does need replacing fairly soon, but I'll try and get the part and keep you going through the winter". He returned with the part at
6:30 that evening (how's that for service!!), fitted it and left with everything working. £75 + a part (about £15 IIRC).
She replaced the system this year - guess who _didn't_ the business?
There are two issues regarding showers that may come into play here. One is where you have a mains cold feed, and a gravity hot. Apart from the fact that the shower is unlikely to work that well, there is also the concern that your stored hot water could contaminate the mains supply in some circumstances. This however can be fixed by the inclusion of a non return "double check" valve on the mains supply. This is a water by-law requirement.
Hence the BG chap may have been thinking of taking a hot feed plus your existing mains cold feed to the electric shower and arriving at the unsatisfactory solution above.
The second issue is one of danger of scalding etc. Where a shower shares pipes with other taps, there is the danger that someone turns on a cold tap elsewhere and boils the person in the shower. This is often mitigated by running separate dedicated pipes from the hot and cold tanks to the shower.
One solution I can see:
Get a new thermostatic mixer shower, and hook the shower up using feeds from the sink pipework (like what the BG chap said not to do!). Ignore the existing mains cold feed for the electric shower. Fit a booster pump to the current tank fed supply. This should ensure there is adequate flow rate and pressure to satisfy the shower and the taps, will eliminate contamination issues, and also protect you from the worst excesses of temperature fluctuations. Depending on where you put the pump you may also use it to increase the flow rate to the bath taps.
This is the major problem with combi boilers. Because they heat cold water as it passes through the boiler, the flow has to be restricted to obtain any decent heat. The result is a very weak flow and 30 minutes to fill the bath. I've several relatives who have combi boilers and apart from the above they always seem to be having problems with them. Quite frankly I wouldn't touch a combi with a barge pole. Why can't we just have pressurised hot water systems like the rest of the world?
Thanks John. This is now starting to get interesting and feasible. I have googled on thermostatic mixer showers and booster pumps and found this page:
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is a low pressure systems chart and answering yes to all the questions takes me to power showers. This last option asks if you prefer an all-in-one power shower. If "no", then you need a pump. If "yes" ie Event XS thermostatic, is the pump built in? It is not clear. Would this solve our problem? It can't really be as easy as running feeds from the hot and cold bath tap feeds under the bath to the new unit can it??? This unit delivers 16 litres per minute (ours is 2.5 litres and will get less as the water temperature drops) although it has a flow boost feature and fully variable pump control so I assume you can use less than 16 litres per minute. Our hot tank holds 117 litres, the cold tank I'm guessing maybe 200 litres. There are usually only 2 of us to use the shower. Can the hot tank handle it ok? If the litres per minute can be less I think it should not be a problem.
As to the electrical supply, we have a fused pull switch for the existing shower. How do I know whether this is suitable? Don't know what double pole is, or a minimum 33 contact separation in each pole.
I'm probably getting ahead of myself here but can see a real shower ahead! If I am going in the wrong direction, please point me back to the land of reality and the booster pump I should be looking at.
Indeed you can! I do. It is just a case of persuading the backward looking conservative mass of plumbers and heating engineers to fit something other than a 30 year old cast iron boiler design with gravity hot water.
"Pinot Grigio" wrote | This unit delivers 16 litres per minute (ours is 2.5 litres and will | get less as the water temperature drops) although it has a flow | boost feature and fully variable pump control so I assume you can | use less than 16 litres per minute. | Our hot tank holds 117 litres, the cold tank I'm guessing maybe 200 litres.
You could turn the pump down or, at a later date, replace the HW cylinder with a bigger one.
| As to the electrical supply, we have a fused pull switch for the existing | shower. How do I know whether this is suitable? Don't know what double | pole is, or a minimum 33 contact separation in each pole.
The existing shower supply should be adequate, but either the MCB will need to be reduced or a fused connection unit (FCU) put in somewhere, as the pump will need protecting at 3-6A and not the 30-45A of an electric shower.
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