But don't you see, if somebody is killed because of my work I will be called to account. If it turns out I didn't test the instalation or ignored the results then I would not have adhered to IEE 16th Edition Regulations. Now as I say if you practice unsoundly and somebody dies you go down. HSE Executive would see to that.
No it isn't at all, but to add to or modify a circuit that does not meet current regulation is crap work and potentially dangerous. If somebody dies you drop the word potentially
I follow current IEE Regulations. I don't make them up.
Who sees it like that? Not me! I couldn't sleep at night if I killed somebody. Most electricians are the same so always stick to the Regs.
It *might* be in a safe condition, then again it might not. You don't even know if it was safe when new, so without inspection and testing there is even less you can state with any certaintly now.
And it's near impossible to inspect every inch of the cabling in a house for signs of deterioration. That rubber TW&E would often go brittle in the most unexpected places - maybe due to poor storage when new. So one bit might appear ok - but another unseen section, perhaps from another drum, could be lethal. And just because it tests ok doesn't mean it will continue to be - especially if modifications are to be made, disturbing things.
It's really not worth risking, and a fresh re-wire with adequate sockets etc and the appropriate paperwork should add to the value of the property.
It might have been put in wrong in the first place, but what it won't have done is perished to the point of being outright dangerous like rubber wiring.
This is correct. As a Chartered Building Surveyor, my training and qualifications do not cover the detail of testing and reporting on electrical installations, and for that reason, neither does my Professional Indemnity Insurance policy. This is a specialist skill, learnt through years of study and site experience, and it is right that it should be carried out by a qualified and experienced specialist.
In the past it was common for a surveyor to have an association with a local electrician and a plumber, who he would ask to provide reports to bind into his own report if he thought it necessary. These days people are not prepared to pay for that and, to be fair, it is less likely to be necessary now, as most old installations have now been replaced. The average punter needing a full survey rings round a few firms to check prices and virtually always goes with the cheapest without comparing what he's getting for his money, so these days testing services is an "optional extra".
Having said that, I believe a surveyor should have enough basic knowledge to be able to give a general description of the condition of the services and give an opinion whether any serious work is likely to be needed. To just say "Get a specialist report" without looking at it is a cop out. (And the same applies to woodworm, rot, dampness and structural cracking in my book). When doing a full survey inspection I always quickly check the incoming main, the meter and CU, the earthing arrangements and any equipotential bonding, as well as the age and type of cabling and accessories. I'd usually remove a faceplate or two and in the odd case, particularly when a lot of bodging was evident, I might even carry out a simple earth continuity test. I would almost certainly have picked up the rubber wiring in this case and reported that a full test was needed, with the possiblility of a full rewire being needed. But as I said, I am not suitably qualified, experienced or insured to go beyond that.
One other thing sprang to mind reading the original post - quite often electricians don't bother to rip out the old wiring when doing a rewire. Are we certain this rubber-insulated cable is still in active use?
Firstly you are assuming that it is *not* rubber... 40 years ago rubber and PBJ were still in limited use. Secondly you are assuming that just because it is likely to be PVC clad it will be safe. That assumes that it has not been routinely run at or over its max temperature budget which could have dramatically shortened the life of some cable segments. Finally you are assuming that it has survived forty years without being altered or extended and bodged at any stage.
Not to mention that ep bonding won't be up to spec, lighting circuits probably won't have an earth (and are likely to have acquired at least one metal fitting) etc.
no she got what she paid for , the basic survey is just that it basically states that the house has no major structural issues and is worth what the morgagee wishes to borrow against it
yes reported in the press last year and many trade manuals , sparks got done for manslaughter because on completion of extra socket install (which was performed correctly) he failed to check and notify the householder that the rest of the system was faulty
But surely isn't this instance also about the likelihood that if an ancient, rubber-insulated installation - which may be working fine, as safely as it's possible for such a system to be - is disturbed by connecting in more wiring, then the very act of disturbing it is quite likely to render it distinctly unsafe (eg by insulation cracking and falling off)?
I must say I don't think I've ever seen a report from a buildings surveyor that says anything other than 'get a specialist report' concerning the electrics (and I agree, I get really irritated seeing that phrase peppered throughout a report!). But once you (as a surveyor and not a qualified sparks) start doing checking to the level you describe above, doesn't that make you incredibly vulnerable to people like the OP? Does your indemnity insurance cover you for commenting on the electrics?
Yes, but only to the extent of my capabilities and qualifications. My insurers would not back me if I went beyond that.
The point I was making is that I am not capable or qualified to judge whether an installation is in good and safe condition, and I would never ever state that. But I do think it is my duty to inspect and report any obvious major problems that I can see without performing any specialist testing. If I saw rubber wiring I feel it would be my duty to tell my client that this probably indicates an old installation and that the chances of needing a full rewire are fairly high. I've often reported that an installation looks to be completely shot and that a specialist report would be a waste of money. In my book that makes me less vulnerable to a claim than if I'd seen a problem and not reported it.
Many thanks to you all for your help/replies on this matter. I suppose the next step is for my friend to have the wiring properly tested and go from there. Are they're any companies that do indepentant wiring/safety checks on homes? or can anyone recommend a good sparky.She lives in the Reading area
Many thanks to you all for your help/replies on this matter. I suppose the next step is for my friend to have the wiring properly tested and go from there. Are they're any companies that do indepentant wiring/safety checks on homes? or can anyone recommend a good sparky.She lives in the Reading area
How much would it typically cost to have the wiring tested? My thinking is to have the wiring tested.... if it is found to be in need of rewire then approch the housing assocation with the report in hand.
Phil, before you go spending any cash, check out Southern Electric. I'm not sure if they still do it now, but at one time they would do a visual check and provide a report, recommendations and estimate for free.
Otherwise I'd recommend Bamford Electrics, Portman Road, 0118 950 0293 (who I've known for over 30 years), or if not them make sure you choose a NICEIC member.
yes but the report is based only upon the infomation needed to secure a loan against the property , the state of the wiring would be irrelevant , most building society surveyours will only report on the brief required to go behond this could lead to issues of liablity if later a specialist is bought in to examine electricals etc and the opinions within the reports are somewhat different .
The best course of action is not to comment upon the installation or advise that a specialist inspection is suggested
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