Rogue Traders...

[Mary Fisher]

I'm no more a judge than anyone else in any capacity.

Mary

[Mary Fisher]

I rest my case:-)

Mary

[John Rumm]

I agree, if you were competent then I would have thought that it would be an easy enough defence to mount with the aid of an expert witness etc. So the chances of a case being brought against someone competent (technically) would seem slight. A much more likely target would be the outright bodger who lashed up a boiler with speedfit.

If you have a look at the most recent accident stats (same site), they show 5 fatalities as a result of explosion / fire, and 20 more from CO poisoning. Given the very low accident rate (in the grand scheme of things) There must be massive probability that all these accidents occurred on set-ups installed by a "fitter" rather than a DIYer.

[Dave]

In law, the term common sense means nothing.

Now onto other matters.

I was cleared to work with far more dangerous gasses than the stuff that came from the North Sea. Shouldn't that make me a competent person to work with less dangerous gasses?

Dave

[Ed Sirett]

Yes, for money or money's worth.

Should the matter of competence ever get tested in court then the prosecution will argue that it would add up to the same requirement as are needed to gain CORGI membership. The defence might take the line that it meant new what you were doing and put it into practice as far as the specific job was involved.

[Andrew Gabriel]

No it's not. This was discussed when the gas regs were last revised. Some of the vested interests (e.g. CORGI) wanted it banned, but there was no evidence that DIY gas work had resulted in any nasty incidents, so it was not banned. The nasty incidents are caused by incompetant traders (some CORGI but more not), lack of servicing (which banning DIY would only make worse most likely), and leaks in the supply network external to the premises (Transco's responsibility).

[Ed Sirett]

I wonder if Transco will use that as a defence next time they are in court?

[DJC]

But even experts can make mistakes. It would be perfectly possible for a competent person to nonetheless be found in some particular instance to have been negligent etc. They would not necessarily be judge incompetent.

[Mary Fisher]

Only if you understand domestic appliances ... I'm not denigrating your knowledge and skills by any means but surely there's a difference between what happens on rigs/platforms and kitchens/bathrooms? It can't be just a matter of scale.

Would Spouse, who knows a LOT about domestic appliances, be capable of doing the job you did on the North Sea?

Mary

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I'd hazard a guess that any old woman buying gas type fittings in B&Q is likely to be *very* competent. ;-)

[Ed Sirett]

One of the scenarios you may need to consider is that you did a competent job weather by accident or design, it was faultless. Subsequently there was an event and very unfortunately it lead to a series of occurances and something bad happened.

Although you did the job competently there is going to be one hell of an uphill struggle to clear yourself.

The FAQ is provided for illumination, information and education. It's not intended to encourage people to have a go at testing the law in this area.

[Bob Mannix]

competent probably (I would guess) but, due to the strangeness of the law we both alluded to, possibly not a "competent person"! You'd have a far better chance of convincing them that you were than most of us would though, especially if you have a qualification.

Bob Mannix

[Bob Mannix]

I would certainly hope (personally) this turned out to be the case! Having a somewhat cynical outlook when it comes to the unholy alliance of vested interests, politicians and legislators however, I would change your words to say:

"...there was no evidence that DIY gas work had resulted in nasty incidents, so it could not be banned outright." That doesn't mean time wont be bided until it can be banned - look at the notices in B&Q and on equipment quoted here, the programme that was the original subject of this thread, more and more one has to say "no, that's not actually the law" - continuous gentle pressure will do the trick against us eventually. Most likely in the long term is an integration of Part P and the gas regulations (neater - legislators like that) which is likely to be more prescriptive - when can you remember a law that swung the pendulum the DIY way away from industry vested interests?

As with all such legislation, those who are most likely to do a conscientious job will not want to go against the law and those who don't give a sh*t will carry on not giving a sh*t and nothing will be any safer.Everyone on this ng (more or less) knows that but, wonderful people though we are, no-one will pay any attention to us.

Bob Mannix

[Pete C]

Hi,

If you burn it to a DVD first then Gordian Knot and AutoGK are worth a look for getting it to a shareable format.

cheers, Pete.

[Mary Fisher]

If she were she wouldn't be buying from B&Q ... :-)

Mary

>

[david lang]

|| Should the matter of competence ever get tested in court then the || prosecution will argue that it would add up to the same requirement || as are needed to gain CORGI membership. The defence might take the || line that it meant new what you were doing and put it into practice || as far as the specific job was involved.

So, I've spent 30 years selling/installing/mending industrial hot/steam high pressure cleaners. These things have diesel fired boilers of 55,000 btu +, get up to 155 centigrade @20 litres/minute and water pressure up to 200 bar.

Would I be judged competant to install a gas cooker? According to Curry's I'm not & have to pay a CORGI guy £85+VAT to twist a hose.

Dave

[Andy Hall]

When something is intended to have a legal definition in a Statutory Instrument, it is explicitly broken out as a term and a definition is made.

This is not the case in SI 2451 1998

- (1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so.

"competent" is not defined.

However, other terms such as "responsible person" are defined.

There are also numerous references to

"member of a class of persons approved for the time being by the Health and Safety Executive for the purposes of this paragraph."

The legislation hands off responsibility for defining said class of persons to the HSE. It doesn't do the same for defining "competent" or seek to do so itself.

[Mary Fisher]

They really do tie themselves in knots when trying to define such words, don't they!

If they can't do it, how can we on this ng?

Mary

[john.stumbles]

You might be competent to handle high explosives, liquid oxygen, HF and smallpox but still not know the ventilation, siting and other requirements for installing a gas cooker.

[Nick Atty]

Bizarrely, if you were to buy all the bits for altering the installation for a dual fuel cooker - say a quick release hose, a cooker switch and an cooker outlet, the gas parts would tell you (wrongly) that it is illegal to fit them, but the electricity would say nothing (even though it is (FSVO "illegal").