Hi
We're planning on removing a wall between our kitchen and dining room. I'd like to keep the ceiling completely flat - in other words, put the universal beam within the ceiling void.
Is this much more difficult than having it underneath?
What is involved?
Cheers,
Steve
Depending on the span, and therefore size of beam, this may prove to be nigh on impossible{1} Another more sensible option is to put it as high up as possible and lower the ceiling, IE put in a false ceiling on new timbers to hide the beam(s)
{1} Don't foget that each end of it has to be sitting on a concrete padstone, usually around 100mm deep, 450mm long and 250mm high, meaning that a section of wall at each side will need to be removed to fit it in, unless it's going on piers or columns, although these still require the padstones.
=============================== There was something like this on one of the many DIY TV programmes where the builder placed the beam in such a way that a stepped floor was required in the bedroom above. The client wasn't very pleased.
Although you've said that you want to keep the ceiling flat it might be worth considering an arch to conceal the beam. Such a solution wouldn't be out of place in this kind of situation.
Alternatively you might be able to have the joists fitted to the joists using joist hangers. I believe Tommy Walsh showed this method on one of his programmes. It would depend to some extent on the direction of the joists.
Cic.
Hi
It would be best if the joists ran with the beam , but there are other factors such as the depth of the joists , the spacing of them and I assume you would have a wall above , then where the course lies on this , you can reduce the height of a beam and go for a wider section but there are limits , also do you have any services that pass where the beam will go ? I think it would be difficult to give a yes no answer , plan it out carefully and take of some plaster to look at things.
Pablo
Basically, if it runs across the joists of the ceiling above they'll all have to be removed then replaced - and that's assuming a beam of the strength required will fit in the void. And of course there may be a wall sitting on that too.
I considered doing this when I removed the wall between front and back rooms here - but even with an empty house which was a tip considered it too much work.
I remember that - it was Sarah Beeney's Property Ladder. The hapless developer had buggered off on holiday for a fortnight, leaving the builder with the instruction, like yours, that the downstairs ceiling between the two newly-joined up rooms was to be flat. The builder took him at his word, and there was an almighty row on the customer's return when he found the step right across the in the room above - necessary because the gap between the floor and ceiling was too small to accommodate the stonking great RSJ which was necessary. I suspect you'll find the situation similar in your case.
David
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Slight correction:
Alternatively you might be able to have the joists fitted to the BEAM / RSJ using joist hangers.
Hi
The joists intersect the beam rather than running alongside. I imagined I may have been able to use some kind of joist hangers to achieve this but it is clearly more complex than that...
There are no services in the way. One side of the beam will be slotting into the exterior wall of the house, the other will be sitting on top of an existing pier.
The span is 3600mm. The only things above it are stud/plasterboard walls (no brick or blockwork).
Cheers,
Steve
The sensible solution may be a protruding beam, and then a lowered false ceiling to the new room.
The ceilings in the two rooms may not be at the same height anyway, so a complete new through ceiling would be required in any case.
Owain
You don't need joist hangers if the beam is at right angles to the joists
- they just sit on the bottom flange and are wedged to prevent movement. Or at least this method was approved by the BS on my loft conversion.
Exactly. The problem, as others have mentioned, is for the span you need can you fit the beam in the space available and is theer enough wall under each end to support the beam. 3.6m is quite a span.
In message , stevelup writes
Hi,
Yes it can be tricky but I have done just that. Slight difference for me was that the steel ran in line with existing joists, total span of 3.2m.
We didn't need concrete padstones for this beam (but funnily enough did for some other steels) just a single class A engineering brick at each end.
The beam was a 150x90 PFC24 going into a 175mm floor space, with plating and bolts for the beam it was tight but doable.
Best tip I can offer, if you're tight for space, you can achieve the 30 min fire protection with intumescent paint rather than sheets of plasterboard, this can easily save you 25mm height/width and in some cases 50mm or more.
Had a heck of a time finding the stuff, but Albisteel at £70+vat for five litres, can be brush applied....
Hth Someone
In general it can be done and your span is certainly not excessive. I've done this on a 5.5m span with brick walls (2 floors) above. The only real problem is if your joists are shallow. Mine were 8" which wasn't enough to use a single UB (would have been 10") but it worked with 2 side by side 8" UBs welded together. In another place I only have 5.5" joists and for that one there was no way of getting the ceiling flat. If you have 8" then almost definitely OK.
It is more expensive. I reckon I paid about =A31k more as you have to support the wall above to stop it falling through the hole where the beam will go.
It looks much better as a finished result.
Always, always get a structural engineer to do the calculations, but make it absolutely clear what you want to achieve. I'd done enough structural engineering at Uni to be able to tell my Struct E what to try when he first suggested a 10" beam and leaving with the 2" downstand ("no try it again with 2x8"). If you have any further queries or more details post them here or email.
Fash
...which is quite a difference. Did you have brick walls above??
That is a great tip - many thanks.
Steve
I'm well outside my comfort zone with this so I'm going to find a structural engineer...
Thanks for your feedback, it has proven that what I want to do is possible.
Cheers,
Steve
No, not at the time of putting the beam in, but the beam is to support a new load bearing wall.
Obviously if there had been a wall already there, then it would have been more work, but still do-able.
I was addressing the idea of getting a beam into the floor space without dropping the ceiling below or having a raised lip above (we have a doorway through the wall), rather than the general mechanics of fitting it.
Regards Someone
Yes - and there might well be a wall directly above. Which of course could be useful to conceal the top of the beam.
I think it should be possible , building control like the beam to sit on pad stones or engineering bricks rather than old bricks because they are unpredictable and don't have the compressive strenght of modern fired bricks , I would look to overboard the whole ceiling afterwards , an engineering shop or building control should be able to tell you the beam size , a structual engineer will charge a couple of hundred pounds for the calcs then you give them to building control and they check them , so you might as well ask them first,I would think your problem would be physically getting the joists in the beam , getting one side in may be possible without to much disturbance , but the other side will require quite a bit .
Pablo
I think you may be missing something here. The OP has an existing floor attached to the joists, which kind of makes it hard to wedge them anywhere, unless you want to take up the whole floor.
It's very straightforward. The web of the UB is infilled with timber, bolted to the UB (not that it can go anywhere anyway) and then you use joist hangers. In general it's preferable to use hangers which go right over the beam, they can then be nailed. Alternatively you can use face hangers (See my other post, I have this for a 5.5m span carrying two brick walls, two floors....) which are screwed to the beam.
You need a bigger hole than the beam to lift it into place. I'm waiting for you to tell me how I'm going to wedge this beam in.
Fash
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