Removing wall - would like to keep ceiling flat.

Hi
We're planning on removing a wall between our kitchen and dining room. I'd like to keep the ceiling completely flat - in other words, put the universal beam within the ceiling void.
Is this much more difficult than having it underneath?
What is involved?
Cheers,
Steve
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stevelup wrote:

Depending on the span, and therefore size of beam, this may prove to be nigh on impossible Another more sensible option is to put it as high up as possible and lower the ceiling, IE put in a false ceiling on new timbers to hide the beam(s)
Don't foget that each end of it has to be sitting on a concrete padstone, usually around 100mm deep, 450mm long and 250mm high, meaning that a section of wall at each side will need to be removed to fit it in, unless it's going on piers or columns, although these still require the padstones.
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On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 12:51:04 -0800, stevelup wrote:

==============================There was something like this on one of the many DIY TV programmes where the builder placed the beam in such a way that a stepped floor was required in the bedroom above. The client wasn't very pleased.
Although you've said that you want to keep the ceiling flat it might be worth considering an arch to conceal the beam. Such a solution wouldn't be out of place in this kind of situation.
Alternatively you might be able to have the joists fitted to the joists using joist hangers. I believe Tommy Walsh showed this method on one of his programmes. It would depend to some extent on the direction of the joists.
Cic.
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Hi
It would be best if the joists ran with the beam , but there are other factors such as the depth of the joists , the spacing of them and I assume you would have a wall above , then where the course lies on this , you can reduce the height of a beam and go for a wider section but there are limits , also do you have any services that pass where the beam will go ? I think it would be difficult to give a yes no answer , plan it out carefully and take of some plaster to look at things.
Pablo
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On Mar 5, 10:27 pm, snipped-for-privacy@btinternet.com wrote:

Hi
The joists intersect the beam rather than running alongside. I imagined I may have been able to use some kind of joist hangers to achieve this but it is clearly more complex than that...
There are no services in the way. One side of the beam will be slotting into the exterior wall of the house, the other will be sitting on top of an existing pier.
The span is 3600mm. The only things above it are stud/plasterboard walls (no brick or blockwork).
Cheers,
Steve
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Cicero wrote:

I remember that - it was Sarah Beeney's Property Ladder. The hapless developer had buggered off on holiday for a fortnight, leaving the builder with the instruction, like yours, that the downstairs ceiling between the two newly-joined up rooms was to be flat. The builder took him at his word, and there was an almighty row on the customer's return when he found the step right across the in the room above - necessary because the gap between the floor and ceiling was too small to accommodate the stonking great RSJ which was necessary. I suspect you'll find the situation similar in your case.
David
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On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 21:19:19 +0000, Cicero wrote:

------------------------------------
Slight correction:
Alternatively you might be able to have the joists fitted to the BEAM / RSJ using joist hangers.
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You don't need joist hangers if the beam is at right angles to the joists - they just sit on the bottom flange and are wedged to prevent movement. Or at least this method was approved by the BS on my loft conversion.
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wrote:

Exactly. The problem, as others have mentioned, is for the span you need can you fit the beam in the space available and is theer enough wall under each end to support the beam. 3.6m is quite a span.
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Yes - and there might well be a wall directly above. Which of course could be useful to conceal the top of the beam.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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I think it should be possible , building control like the beam to sit on pad stones or engineering bricks rather than old bricks because they are unpredictable and don't have the compressive strenght of modern fired bricks , I would look to overboard the whole ceiling afterwards , an engineering shop or building control should be able to tell you the beam size , a structual engineer will charge a couple of hundred pounds for the calcs then you give them to building control and they check them , so you might as well ask them first,I would think your problem would be physically getting the joists in the beam , getting one side in may be possible without to much disturbance , but the other side will require quite a bit .
Pablo
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I think you may be missing something here. The OP has an existing floor attached to the joists, which kind of makes it hard to wedge them anywhere, unless you want to take up the whole floor.
It's very straightforward. The web of the UB is infilled with timber, bolted to the UB (not that it can go anywhere anyway) and then you use joist hangers. In general it's preferable to use hangers which go right over the beam, they can then be nailed. Alternatively you can use face hangers (See my other post, I have this for a 5.5m span carrying two brick walls, two floors....) which are screwed to the beam.
You need a bigger hole than the beam to lift it into place. I'm waiting for you to tell me how I'm going to wedge this beam in.
Fash
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Which is what I said in an earlier post.

It would depend on the condition of the rooms above as to which was the easier method. When I considered it the house was empty, and removing an entire floor from one room wouldn't have been as difficult as it might first seem.
I hadn't heard of your method, though, and nor was it suggested at the time.
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Hi
Unfortunately, the area where the beam is to be installed spans two different rooms and the landing. I can't see any sensible way of lifting the floor as it is a chipboard floor and passes underneath the stud walls upstairs.
I definitely need to approach this from downstairs.
If the UB is infilled with wood and the joists are connected to this using joist hangers, how would I achieve the fire rating? Would the intumescent paint recommended by 'somebody' still be an appropriate solution?
Cheers,
Steve
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Hi I can't think how you are going to acheive this without major distruption to to rooms and floors . Most things are possible with enough time and money , Having the beam underneath is a much simpler quicker / cheaper choice .
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On Mar 7, 7:43 pm, snipped-for-privacy@btinternet.com wrote:

I must be over simplifying this in my head but the solution suggested by Fash seems perfectly simple and disruption free.
1) Prop either side of the wall 2) Cut joists 3) Put beam in place (infilled with timber) 4) Attach joists to beam using joist hangers.
The only point I'm unclear on is fire protection...
Going off on a tangent here but does the beam need to be steel - what about Glulam? Wouldn't need fire proofing and the joists could be screwed directly to it using some kind of hanger?
Regards,
Steve
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Another option is to have a plate welded to the bottom of the beam to pick up and support the old joists. You'd need your structural engineer to work this one out though.
It'll add a bit of cost to the fabrication, but save some time/effort on the actual install.

I was too :-) It seems most of the fire protection professionals want to maintain their status as guru's or something, most are quite reluctant to divulge their 'secrets'.
For example, I was quoted over 1,500 for intumescent paint to protect our steel beams, but no-one would say *why*. Once I learned "HpA", 3 sided, 4 sided etc, I found the same protection from Albisteel for 140. I know, that's crazy :-)
Our beams don't have any timber bolted directly to them so I don't have specific knowledge of this aspect, but my understanding is that.... - due to the different nature of wood/steel, any surface of the steel, fully covered by something like 50mm of timber is considered to have sufficient (30 minute or so) fire protection.
Timber generally chars before it burns, the char itself (carbonised wood or summat) protects the wood for some time prior to it actually failing, steel on the other hand, simply fails at a certain temperature.
Your local BCO will know how much timber is deemed satisfactory. So for example, if you go with your average universal beam with timber plated either side to pick up the joists you would need fire protection based on....
1: The HpA of the beam (this is a constant for the size of steel) 2: The number of exposed surfaces (in this case, two) 3: The length of time of protection required (30 mins in an average house) 4: The type of fire involved (cellulosic or hydrocarbon) - hydrocarbon for a dwelling
You would apply an intumescent paint to the relevant thickness accordingly, or use a certain thickness of fireboard, plaster board etc etc.
To calculate the HpA
1: measure or calculate the perimeter/circumference of the beam (in metres). 2: Calculate the section area (ie the surface area of the end of the beam in square metres). 3: Divide the circumference (in m) by the section area (in m2).
Ie, 150x90 PFC24 has an HpA of (as near as dammit) 200.
Look at the 'Application Rates' table on the Albi site, and you'll see how much paint you need to put on.
Hth Someone
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I doubt you could use *hook over* hangers.
Speaking agriculturally..... why not dispense with the upper flange? Perhaps back to back bolted unequal angle? Or two opposing T sections fishplated together.
One can revel in the freedom of an industry not regulated by building control:-)
regards
--
Tim Lamb

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Sod glulam, just makes a pain of the section and the BCO will probably not like it. See previous post about fire protection. Basically protect the steel as you would need to without the timber infill (probably 2 coats of paint) and the timber helps.
Regarding welding a flange to the bottom of the beam, I've tried that as well! (in total there are now 9 new pieces of steel holding up the house that weren't there when I moved in. This was my cellar span which is 3.6m with no walls on top (floor loading only). Again flat ceiling required but in this case joists are exposed underneath. The flange was more expensive, but looks much neater given that in this case it's exposed. In the situation where you want the flat ceiling in the room, it's also a bit of a pain trying to cover the 6mm (which is roughly what you would need) steel plate, unless you are overboarding the ceiling.
You shouldn't get too hung up on the fire protection. You only need to achieve 0.5hr protection since it's about making sure the building stays intact while everyone gets out. The reality is that in most cases the steel would actually survive for the required time with no protection. I'm not advocating doing nothing and the BCO would throw a wobbly, but if you coat it with intumescent paint x2 it will be fine. A google search for brush applied intumescent paint will find some suppliers.
Of course it's easier to sling the beam under, but you'll spend the next x years thicking "it really wouldn't have cost much more, damn." The extra costs are that it's more labour (cutting joists back fitting hangers etc.) and the support is a bit more difficult as you have to support the floor from underneath (easy) but any structures above also need to be supported to.
Fash
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Yes you can still use intumescent paint. My BCO was quite happy with intumescent paint before the timber infill. The timber has a relatively low char rate and insulates the steel anyway. Clearly in this case you need to apply the paint before the timber is in position. In my case we painted the beam then fitted the infill timber and then lifted the beam into place.
For joist fixing, using face hangers or hangers which go over the beam depends on the wall above. If it's a stud wall then it may be easier to use face hangers as then the sole plate for the wall doesn't necessarily need to come out. The one case where I used face hangers the wall above was timber frame with brick infill (georgian construction method). In the case where I used over hangers the wall was simple brick and after needling it for support we took a few bricks (some of them fell out anyway) to get the hangers through.
Fash
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