Problem Installing Floor Noggins

[Phil Young]

Hi,

ATM I'm replacing the floor in the kitchen of my c1900 house.

I've (painfully) persuaded the mainly original T&G boards up, carefully since I want to reuse them in other rooms. This leaves me with the 2x4 and 3x4 joists exposed.

I've cut 18mm WBP to match the decidedly non-square room, so I now need to add noggins (I'm using 2x3 for this) at the points where the boards will join. I'm trying to fix the noggins in place with a 2 1/2 inch oval nail through the top face, and then one at each side face.

The problem I'm having is that I don't know how to keep the noggins in position whilst nailing. I'm putting the nails into the noggin on the bench until they are just breaking through and then putting them in place, but they always end up a few mm out of the intended position. I don't suppose this is too bad horizontally, but surely in the vertical they need to end up level with the top of the joist ?

Is there some secret to this, or am I just being thick ? (Or possibly both)

Cheers,

Phil Young

[Lobster]

Are the nail going in at an angle and causing slippage between the timber faces maybe?

Whatever, if you're having problems just use a G-cramp to hold the noggin in place while you bash the nails in.

David

[Alex]

put a nail through either side of the noggin and progressively hammer them home,a little either side in rotation until the nail bites in the joist then hammer them home. 50mmx50mm is normally used.

[Set Square]

Can't you nail through the joists into the ends of the noggins?

[You will have to offset adjacent noggins a bit to do this, rather than having them all in one line - but that shouldn't be too much of a problem. If you *need* them in a single line to support the flooring, you can still do it - by staggering them to start with, and then nailing or screwing a second noggin to the side of every other one.]

If vertical alignment is a problem, get a couple of 6" G-clamps and clamp a piece of timber across the bottom of two adjacent joists for the noggin to rest on (with additional packing if necessary) while you nail it in.

[Phil Young]

Some sort of clamping is going definitely going to be required. I'll have to try some F-clamps, along with suitable packing under the noggin, or maybe just buy some bigger G-clamps.

The nails are going in at an angle since I'm skew nailing. I can't offset alternate noggins (to allow nailing straight through) since they all have to be along the join between the ply sheets.

Thanks for the info,

Phil Young

[Phil Young]

Thanks, I can see how that would work, I'll give it a go.

Cheers,

Phil Young

[Phil Young]

Thanks for that, but as I said the noggins all have to be in-line rather than offset, along the join line for the WBP above.

Clamps/packing looks to be the way to go. I only wondered if there was some magic trick involved.

Cheers,

Phil Young

[Mr Fizzion]

Out of interest, how close together would the joists have to be to make noggings unnecessary? Or could you use thicker ply if you don't want to use noggings?

[Rick]

Try Thease

[ben]

Screw them in place, hammering is bound to throw them of course. Only other alternative is hammer and chisle(joints).

[Set Square]

Except that I explained how to overcome that - albeit by using an extra 50% of noggin timber. Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough.

Install a noggin between joists 1 & 2 in the right place for the join in the flooring. Install a noggin between joists 2 & 3 offset by one noggin thickness (So *not* quite in the right place.) Install a noggin between joists 3 & 4 in line with 1/2. *Then* get an additional noggin and fix it to the side of 2/3 so that it lines up with

1/2 & 3/4 for floor support purposes. Carry on in this fashion across the room.

[David Lang]

Hire a Paslode or similar type nail gun or screw them in place.

Dave

[Rob Morley]

Screw a longer piece of timber to the top of the noggin, screw this to the joist. Nail the sides, unscrew the spacer and nail the top. Obviously a bit tedious if you don't have a decent electric screwdriver.

[John Armstrong]

You could also just part offset them and save on the extra timber (B=board joint, J=joist, N=noggin):

B NNNBN NNNBN JJJJJJBJJJJJJ JJJJJJBJJJJJJ JJJJJJBJJJJJJ NBNNN NBNNN B

[Phil Young]

No idea !

I'll be tiling over, so the substrate needs to be solid. Subjectively, there doesn't seem to be any movement at the joins at the moment (without noggins), but I'd rather put them in now than leave them out and find out I needed them after all.

The pitch of the joists is about 450mm btw. Thicker ply would obviously be stiffer, but also more expensive and heavier. Plus I have to transport it on top of a VW Polo.

Cheers,

Phil Young

[Phil Young]

Okay, yes, on re-reading I see what your saying. I'll keep that as plan'B', but I'm determined to get them nicely lined up if if kills me.

Cheers,

Phil Young

[Phil Young]

Good plan. Fairly slow, but fairly certain to work. I might try this with a selection of G- and F-clamps rather than screwing though.

Thanks,

Phil Young

[Phil Young]

That would be cheating !

I nearly bought a circular saw to get the T&G boards up (cut through the tongue) but decided they were just too scary - I think a nail-gun falls in about the same category.

Cheers,

Phil Young

[Phil Young]

Thanks, good idea.

Cheers,

Phil Young

[PeterK]

Could someone tell me why noggins are required ? I'd have thought that if you need the join between the sheets to be rigid then my intial thought would have been : Having fixed the first board glue/screw down into an offfcut of the ply

100mm x joist separation placed under the sheet with half exposed and screw the second boards mating edge into the exposed plywood strip.

Would routing out a 18mm deep channel across the joists to accomodate a long jointing strip be a structural no no?

Peter K