Pos. OT: Loading on house wall due to parking...

[AlexW]

(If this has appeared before, apologies, my news server is playing up)

My neighbours have recently purchased land next to (and behind) the gable end of our House. They have plans to either drive across it or to park on it. The area in question is an old agricultural track. The land is agricultural and the track has had maybe 1 land rover over it in the four years since we moved in - and we are not even sure of that. Before that we have been told the former owner hardly ever visited and usually by a different entry point.

We are concerned about static and/or dynamic loading on this piece of land as the track is only about a meter from our house and the surface level of the track is about 1.7 meters up our lounge wall (see plan and side views below).

The gable wall is a random rubble filled stone wall (c. 450mm thick) which has been there for c.150 years but with little or no traffic. We completely tanked and replastered the affected room 3 years ago and there has been zero movement since, so its stable currently.

To me it seems very close for that kind of load (2 cars).

Moving things across that piece of land is also very noisy from within our living room (even footsteps sound like they are right next to you).

Basically I am wondering:

Are my concerns well founded from a structural standpoint?

If they are - how can I approach this make sure anything they do does not impact our house?

Also, do they need change of use to park or run they "domestic" vehicles on it?

What sort if any of permissions do they need to do this? Would we have input into any such process?

Anyone got any good advice about approach?

We get on well with our neighbours and don't want to change that, but I really don't want a VW golf on my sofa either!

Plan view H-house T-track C-parked car:

T T T T T T HHHHHHH T T H T CCCCC T H T CCCCC T H T CCCCC T H T T H T CCCCC T H T CCCCC T H T CCCCC T H T T HHHHHHH T T

Side elevation #-ground, =-roof/first floor:

======= ======= ======= HHHHHHH H H H ======H H CCCCC H CCCCC H CCCCC H##TTTTTTTTT###### H################# HHHHHHH#################

TIA,

Alex (worried).

[Palindr☻me]

Hard to say without looking and knowing the nature of the subsoil - but I would very much doubt it. If you work out the mass of the track that is currently there - the additional mass of the cars will be negligable. The increased transverse thrust even more so. BIANA structual engineer - but do have a house and outbuildings of similar construction, with similar tracks.

Not much. I would suggest that your real worry would be if they did anything which could divert surface water towards your walls. eg if they concreted over it or levelled it, etc. You could talk over that concern with them.

I wouldn't have thought so. But, should they wish to erect permanent structures, such as a garage, then they would need at least building regs approval and quite possibly planning approval.

You would get the usual letter, should they need and apply for building consent. You can then state your concerns in detail. Which will be treated seriously.

Talk to them. The main worry as things are has to be compactation of the soil and hence re-direction of surface water - far, far more so than any structural hazard. It may be that concreting it over, with proper drainage and falling away from your house, actually decreases the risk of water penetration. It may also reduce the vehicle noise.

If the guy is parking up his mobile crane/fully laden quarry truck then your worries may be justified. A VW Golf is going to increase the load on your wall by far, far less than a good shower.

[Ben Blaukopf]

Take a vehicle 5metres long and 2 metres wide. The volume of material beneath it weighs 5*2*1.7*relative density. Assuming this material isn't composed of top quality top soil, it weighs well over 17tons. So I don't see a problem with the additional load. Vibration maybe. Haven't a clue about that though.

Ben

[Livewire]

The bottom line is that you're stuck with it. It's their land and they can do what they want, as long as they don't make so much noise that you could get them on that -- and that's unlikely.

If it damages your house, then that's your problem as long as your neighbours are seen to be acting reasonably, and driving cars on their land is perfectly reasonable.

[Peter Crosland]

I can't say and you would need a surveyor would be needed. Having said that It sounds unlikely that there would be a problem with relatively light vehicles.

If it was agricultural land then they would need planniogn permission to use it as part of the domestic curtilage. However, it might be hard to prove this if the only vehicle is a land rover.

Anyone may support a planning permission application or object to it.

It is always good practice to remain on good terms with your neighbours. The first thing is to discuss your concerns informally with them. They may not even realise your concerns or the legal issues. Many neighbour disputes can be avoided by a bit of give and take and common sense.

Peter Crosland

[Rick]

It sounds like you should have purchased the land, but I guess its too late for that.

These walls are amazingly strong, we had one holding 2m of soil, we sat a 6tonne digger on the top, and dug out a 3 foot wide trench. What we found was a supprise to me.

1) the soil have not been disturbed since the ice age, basically the builders had dug the soil to the right place, and built against it. Therfore what soil remained was very compact and strong. 2) The wall had no mortar in it at all, it had over the years all washed out, there had been no roof for 20+ years. 3) even after all this disturbance it was a hell of a lot of work to take down, so we could rebuild it for modern regs.

On further investigation we discovered that you sometimes find that the bottom on the wall is very thin, as they dig less out at that point, and it only reaches full thickness at the top. This was the case in a different wall.

I guess much will depend upon the soil.

I would talk to your neighbours, I guess they have no desire to end up in your house one day. They may not be aware of the problem.

Rick

[Peter Taylor]

etc snipped

Alex, anyone can see why you're concerned, and I'm sorry I can't make you feel any better. I don't really see what makes you think you can control what your neighbour can or can't do on his land, either by law or in practice. You have as much right to tell him where he can or can't drive his vehicles as he has to tell you to move your house out of the way, IYSWIM. I agree it would be a good idea to show him why you're worried.

My feeling is there's very little risk of your (450mm!!) wall being damaged by the weight of the vehicles, but if you want to be sure, probably the best way to prevent it is with a row of piles or sheet piling to support the soil away from the wall. If it did happen then I'm pretty certain it would be your problem not his, unless you can prove he'd done something really reckless. Hopefully the risk is covered by your buildings insurance policy - it might help you feel a bit better if your insurers confirmed it falls under one of the "insured perils". Good luck :o)

Peter

[Sharky]

I agree with the others, I live on a street corner with 3 feet of pavement on two aspects between me and the two roads that meet.

3 double decker buses an hour turn past my house 3 feet away from the walls, and nothing has happened in the 20 years I've been her. And I have a cellar on the corner that faces these roads!.

[nightjar]

One Land Rover will be a lot heavier than most cars. If that didn't cave the wall in, an ordinary car is very unlikely to, no matter how often it crosses the same bit of land. Even the weight of the Land Rover will be fairly insiginificant compared to the weight of soil against wall.

The number of cars is more or less immaterial. A couple following each other will still have a fair gap between them, so that will not affect the point loading.

Not much you can do about that, except build a heavy isolated wall inside the original.

Colin Bignell

[AlexW]

The land is agrigcultural and the vehicles in question would be non-agri I think. Incidentally, the specific part of the land in question is not directly connect with their exisitng house/drive/garden does this have any bearing on the "domestic curtilage" status?

They are both retired achitects and have various property interests AIUI and so are probably a lot more experienced in these matters than us - hence the OP. We really don't wan't to fall out over this issues but thats, I think if the tables were turned though they would be unhappy in our situation ... hopefully this can be resolved amicably.

Cheers,

Alex.

[AlexW]

Yup too late. We made enquiries about the land when we bought the house, unfortunatley the farmer wanted to sell us 40 acres at a premium price

- which we could not afford. From the estate agents we beleive he bid on our house (sealed bids) and then offered considrably more than we paid for it when he was not successful. He only ever had 7 cattle (which came with the land apparrently!) on the land. As the previous owner was elderly we think he bought it as an investment opportunity.

My walls are in OK condition on the inside (and I patched them up before we tanked etc) but we also suspect that the walls could taper off toward the floor. The ground is good and firm but that transmits sound directly into our lounge - not ideal.

I do plan to discuss this in the next day or two, my wife has already mentioned some of these concerns, so they should have a chance to consider things too.

Cheers,

Alex.

[Phil]

If they are goign to build a driveway (tarmac, paved etc) then the Party Wall Act would probably apply....

AlexW wrote:

[AlexW]

TBH I am not trying to control anything other than negative affects on the structure of our house or quality of life, I think this is reasonable for me to attempt at least ... also, in certain circumstances for example work on party walls then I might have some input into what someone else does within the bounds of their own property. Currently I am trying to establish what my position is.

Will certainly check the buildings insurance...

Cheers,

Alex

[AlexW]

Thanks for the reassurance ... incidentally, I have a drystone support wall which is buldging a bit where cars are parked and the paving slabs are cracked. This is only supporting 2 foot of earth. I think it will depend on the quality of the wall and earth below I guess.

Alex.

[AlexW]

Looking back at the OP, what I meant was one Landrover, once in four years and not parked for any lenghth of time.

I was thinking of effects of vibration on the rubble filled wall for the dynamic loading (in that respect the frequency of occurence may be a factor) and the dead weight close to the house for the static loading of the two cars, although I did not state this distincion in the OP.

Unfortunately, this is impractical because such wall would partially block a doorway to a conservatory.

Cheers,

Alex.

[AlexW]

Thanks ... I had been thinking along these lines too, but am not sure if this is applicable to the PWA. For example how close would they have to go?

[Peter Taylor]

PWA doesn't apply for a just driveway. It only applies if they plan to build a wall on or against the boundary, or excavate below the bottom level/below 45° line of your foundations within 3m/6m.