PAT testing class I or class II

[ARW]

We are doing writing next year, after he can do two way stitching.

[charles]

my employer had the motto 2Eceryone is their own safety officer" - long before the Eflin ones got involved

[tabbypurr]

??

if it only affects the LV side it does not fail

I have no idea what you're talking about

only a fail if it affects safety

they're there for safety & reliability

that's a blanket statement. A competent tester ought to be able to determine when damage has no effect on safety, as is sometimes the case.

that's unrealistic.

NT

[ARW]

Many building sites have toilets with a mirror above the sink and a message on the mirror that says "You are looking at the person most responsible for your own safety"

[tabbypurr]

ic electrical safety of themselves, the public & employees. I've seen enoug h dangerous electrical work from before PAT testing days to know there was clearly a hazard. But I don't know how many deaths it caused.

Live chassis equipment normally took care to insulate all shafts, grub scre ws etc from the user. Anything that connected a metal record deck direct to mains I don't think would have been legal in the 60s. And by 1970 valve gr amophones were history.

I've seen lots of U- valves in live chassis or universal equipment but none quite that bad. Other bare live appliances yes, heaters especially.

NT

[tabbypurr]

It has greatly improved electrical safety, and sure, it's not perfect. The other approach of every employee checking & reporting all the time is quite unrealistic.

NT

[Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp]

You are wrong on every count.

The HSE is fond of fairly open statements like "take reasonable care" . When the HSE say remove faulty or damaged equipment, it's good enough for me and it was standard practice at my previous place of work.

The dont walk past philosophy is a legal commitment, although as some previous poster stated, I dont know of any prosecutions for failing to communicate the presence of a risk . All decent companies actively promote the procedure though.

AB

[Andrew Gabriel]

I've looked at the course materials for 4-5 training courses and they were all very poor to the point of being wrong in many cases. That's a mixture of manufacturers' courses and independant courses.

I formed the view when I was involved in specifying PAT testing procedures that any tester must present their C&G 2377 certificate on arrival. No other course or certificate is acceptable.

It does have to be said that when training people, coming up with the rules for identifying Class I from Class II products is probably one of the most difficult parts, but it's critical to proper inspection and testing. Writing down rules, which also cope with old products and products which have been incorrectly repaired in the past, and don't run to several pages of A4 is probably impossible. It really needs a good understanding of the priciples and common appliance construction methods.

[Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp]

You know those little Q&A sheets they give out at inductions, there is almost always a multichoice question on them.

Who is responsible for ensuring you wear ear defenders being typical.

1, Yourself

2, The site foreman

3, The HSE

4, Your company health & safety manager

It always provides an interesting little talking point as to why I have ticked the lot. First there is the patronising knowing way they try to explain where I went wrong, followed by the realisation that they haven't got another dumper truck driver with no knowledge or interest in H&S in for the induction this time :-)

The risk assesment is another little gem that some like to see in spreadsheet format with numerical "risk factors".

One isn't an argumentative person, but it is nice to put these people right on how difficult it is to even remotely estimate the resulting injuries from a situation.

Actually the most common item I have disputes with is control panels and JB's on site. 110V or 24V Electrocution is always expected, it never fails to put in an appearance.

Yours truly insists on Blunt force trauma to myself and others.

I seem to recollect that people have been killed on surprisingly low Voltages, but I would expect that if the Americans took to dropping old sparky down to 55Volts, most of the felons would live on to their dotage in the chair.

AB

[Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp]

You may possibly be right on the date, it would be a very close thing though.

The turntables were usually Garrard pressed metal autochangers and as such could not have the metal bits insulated, the central spindle had to be steel as there was a lever that pulled back to allow the next record to drop.

In the 60s you could buy a one or two bar radiant fire, the guard was to prevent contact with the elements, but you could certainly stick a finger on the working element if you felt the urge.

AB

[tabbypurr]

that is also unrealistic

sure, but it's still unrealistic. Anyone with significant experience as an employee knows this.

NT

[tabbypurr]

basic electrical safety of themselves, the public & employees. I've seen en ough dangerous electrical work from before PAT testing days to know there w as clearly a hazard. But I don't know how many deaths it caused.

crews etc from the user. Anything that connected a metal record deck direct to mains I don't think would have been legal in the 60s. And by 1970 valve gramophones were history.

one quite that bad. Other bare live appliances yes, heaters especially.

Live kit you're talking about must be from earlier. Even in the 50s it was normal for live chassis kit to be properly insulated. A plastic deck was al so an option at least from the 60s on.

Many such heaters had no guard or a notional guard only. Bowl heaters were even worse.

NT

[Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp]

No the deck I describe was run at the same time as the SP25, the SP25 being the upmarket device without the autochanger.

It is hard to imagine that any autochanger could be produced without using exposed metal parts. There was a BSR deck that had a plastic lever to define the size of record, but there was no escaping that the forces needed to drop the record dictated that a metal spindle was needed.

Yes, it all floods back. I remember, a central ceramic spigot with coiled nichrome wound around it.

I can only assume that the logic appled at production was that when on the element is hot, so no one will touch it!

Obviously a satisfactory bit of reasoning, but since then we have had Gove and his mob tinkering with the educational system :-(

AB

[ARW]

2, 3 and 4 may not be on site.

You actually engage in conversation with these people?

I do the quick questionnaire if asked to (not very often in the places I work) and then very quickly get out of their way.

[Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp]

It's unrealistic simply because so many people ignore it.

I dont, I never walk past. I sincerely hope that I never have to work with someone that does.

The misery and pain an accident causes can be horrendous and it affects the victim, his family and can be very traumatic for the person that introduced the risk to know that his actions caused a serious injury to occur to a colleague.

I never let any risk pass, I remove the risk if possible and report it, the other little problem is that most accidents are not cut & dried, they are the result of a chain of events with no simple individual cause, effect or indeed outcome, so everything has to be done to break that chain.

AB

[Andrew Gabriel]

The original idea was that in most offices, there would be someone with sufficient knowledge to get the certification themselves, and it would be mainly a DIY function.

You do not need to be an electrician to do inspection and testing, and as you say, some rudimentary education can be given to everyone to look out for obvious faults with appliances, cables, and plugs.

[spuorgelgoog]

Training him to sew up his own pockets?

Owain

[Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp]

They still have a responsibility, if a colleague went to a site I had come from and there was a risk, [often a two legged unit with little between the ears], I would warn the colleague. Everyone has a responsibility for health & safety and I would consider it reasonable to accept some responsibility for what happened away from the office even if it were only a matter of highlighting changes to the method statement. Yes I edit the method statement too :-)

Yes, quite often you can see the eyes roll up and the person doing the induction go into "standby mode"

Then you get those that agree with every point I make, but.....!

At which point I point out that it is very easy to do the job correctly, and the fact that a few details might send a dumper truck driver to sleep isn't a reason for short cuts and over simplifications.

I find that quick questionaires, like test results need a bit of editing to bring them into line with what really are the right answers. A bit like city & guilds multi choice, depending on a persons background, some of the answers were not quite as straightforward as the examiners no doubt intended.

If I ever get caught without my hi vis, a lot of sites would enjoy throwing the book at me.

AB

[spuorgelgoog]

They certainly were not.

My mum's Bush SRP31 was in regular use until the mid 1970s when it was replaced with a stereo Pye Radiogram, and I was given it and had it in frequent use into the 1980s until I took it apart to see what made it work.

The Ferranti valve radio lasted longer as the radio on the Pye radiogram was useless, and I was still using that into the 1980s.

Owain

[Bob Eager]

I was using one of these until the mid 1970s!