[OT with a hint of DIY] - Deciding stuff...

[Tim Watts]

I dunno if it's OCD or what - but I've always had trouble making certain types of decision. Maybe you can help me out with a specific one below, but I'd like to improve my mind while I'm at it...

Here's the practical problem:

Need to route a main incomer water pipe in 22mm copper from A to B - both are fixed points, about 4m apart. There are exactly 3 reasonable routes between A and B but all have disadvantages:

1) Most direct - through a small roof void (18" x 18" triangle) straight over the top of the consumer unit.

2) Less direct - along a bit, then on the side of the purlin which runs over the bungalow stairs. There are 3" of celotex (eventually 4") between the pipe and the roof tiles.

3) Along side of floor joist. Rather awkward as joist overlaps to new joist half way (offset bend), joist is manky and banana shaped (probably not straight) and there's a fair bit of messing about both ends to get back to A and B respectively.

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1) Seems like a poor idea. Even without joints over the CU, there is still a miniscule risk of pipe pinholing or suffering damage and water running back along it. The risk is tiny, the consequences are really bad though. Fairly sure we can strike this one off. Pity - is the easiest and shortest route.

2) Maybe the best - doubt the pipe will freeze with 3-4" celotex between it and the roof even of the house were unheated for a month over winter. But it's not as warm as run 3)

3) Well, it's just really hard work...

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None of those is ideal. I have a bugger of a job making decisions like that.

How can I optimise my thinking process?

Oh and who do I run my pipes :)

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I do not have this problem with computers (at work or home) as it's fairly easy to change configuration and code. So I stick a solution in and if it turns out to be less than optimal, I make evolutionary changes over tome until it does what is required in the best way.

You can't really do that with plumbing - or wiring...

With DIY I always panic and think my solution will go wrong and do something bad...

Actually having the same problem with wiring the lights... But that's another story. sockets don't have any real choices - you loop a cable in and out. Lights have lots of choices.

I would have to say with only a couple of exceptions, stuff I have decided in the past has always worked out brilliantly - my drains work really well, the bathroom is really good for a 3m2 space and my floors that I spent a lot of time fixing are flat level and the tiles have not fallen off.

I just wish I didn't have to kill myself getting between the general plan and the implementation (I'm quite good at the final implementation, just s**te at the detailed design of it).

I'm not going to name names, but I am completely jealous of several people here who take on hard DIY and seem to casually turn out the goods in a super nice way.

So what's your secrets?

[meow2222]

I'd probably go with 1. Install the over-cu pipe at a bit of an angle so condensation runs away.

NT

[dennis]

Run it through some 32mm drain pipe too.

[Bill Wright]

Go for option 1. If it bothers you about the CU run it in a length of outdoor fallpipe with a drain, and the ends sealed. The drain should come out somewhere really obvious and could be nothing more than a length of electrical flexi ducting. If you use rectangular fallpipe the conduit could be joined using a standard gland (the ones with a sealing gasket).

Bill

[Dave Liquorice]

Vanishingly so, the pipe will be insulated no doubt. Others have suggested running it through a bit of waste pipe to divert any leak, I thought of a length of gutter under it.

Meh, had a leak above the meters here, water literally dripping off them. They didn't seem to object in the long term. The quiet fizzing/popping noise from the wettest was a bit alarming though. B-) Leak from a stressed plastic MDPE to copper fitting. "Professionals" don't you just love 'em...

As for burst pipes, had two here but both in the feed to the outside tap that passes through the unheated garage and only feeds that tap. One pushed a compression joint apart, the other was a real burst pipe.

[mike]

If you're worried about copper pin holing, could you not run it in blue MDPE?

[Andrew Gabriel]

and if you're OCD, the lagging should be closed cell (armaflex make it for aircon in particular) to protect against condensation, but in practice, most of the preformed types will do - they're closed cell enough to work providing the pipe isn't always generating condensation.

[Tim Watts]

I'm even more OCD if I were to mention that it's actually a warm attic space (insulation is between the rafters, the kitchen ceiling is just below).

Must look up the closed cell stuff - not really noticed open cell vs closed cell in pipe lagging before... ta.

[John Rumm]

Add a second pipe sleeve over the copper - say some PVC 32mm waste pipe. Then you can direct any potential leak to another location while adding insulation to the copper.

This is not necessarily a bad thing - contemplating they ways it can go wrong and mitigating them in advance is a sound procedure to follow - and certainly better than fixing the problem after it bits you in the arse!

The paralysis of analysis - it affects most logical thinkers and engineers. A desire to make sure every detail is nailed down before you start. Its fine on small jobs, but tends to render larger ones as never able to start.

Glossing over the bits where it all when pear shaped, and taking care to not publish the wrong photos ;-)

[GMM]

I wouldn't begin to claim to be any better than you: Perhaps it's a matter of too much pessimistic imagination? In fact, I tend to compound the problem with the question 'How will I get to it all easily if (when) anything at all goes wrong?' I try to take the approach my builder acquaintance advises: Do the most straighforward thing and try to allow for/solve any serious problems as you go along. In my experience, you can plan the details as much as you like but as soon as you start the job something will cause you to invoke plan B (C /D/E), so you have to make it up as you go along.....

So: Option 1, and put a bin bag over the top of the CU. (only joking - a Waitrose carrier bag would be much more stylish)

[Tim Watts]

:)

Also being alone does not help. I've done far more complicated things at work - but I've usually had a room full of people to bounce ideas off. Most of my mates where I live are not very DIY oriented (it's quite an artsy village, lots of musical types and actors and stuff) - at least not to doing plumbing or electrics. So I'm hugely grateful to you all...

LoL.

[Dave Liquorice]

I have yet to get around to putting a bit of feed bag over the top of the meters that "got a bit damp". Well at some point they might move(*) and any *I've* fixed the leak problem.

(*) If we can ever kick ENW into being sensible. They want plans submitted along with a non-refundable fee before they will even consider thinking about the request. But the "rules", in theory, don't allow the new position (cabinet outside but behind a gate) neither do they allow the current position, under a bathroom. It would be *SO* much easier if an engineer with authority and a bit of common sense could come out and look at the situation and mutally form an acceptable plan. Maybe that bit of feed bag will get installed. B-)

[Tim Watts]

I do factor that in a lot. Sometimes even that goes wrong! The bath goes into a recess in an L shaped bathroom, tap end first.

To make it accessible I put a linteled opening in the wall at the tap end 2ft x 2ft into the next room (daughter's bedroom). Through this, accessing the drain and taps is a dream. Except, being "clever", rather than panel it over, I made a little MDF "box" that fitted in the frame in the hole to form a recess for books and nicknaks.

However, the last time I had to access it, it was a bastard to get out as either the MDF or the wood frame had expanded slightly (mm or so and it was not a taper fit).

So I sanded it down and it was better. Until I tried to shift it again - gawd knows why it keeps doing that. I suspect I will have to apply percussion again. When I get it out again, it will be replaced with a panel!

Yep. I'm trying to keep my lighting junction boxes in 4 groups - somewhere for sanity - either under floorboards, or in the attic spaces. But I have to be careful as I need to allow for where the plumbing for CH is going as pipes are much harder to route than wires.

I used a piece of DPM plastic when I had the roof fixed (CU is near ceiling, top entry, them open to the elements and half a ton of crap when the tiles came off!).

[News]

In message , Tim Watts writes

Ah. To make life easier, how about running the pipes, with insulation, option 1, then running a length of gutter, sealed at both ends, below the pipe, to catch any condensation drips? The warmth of the attic will evaporate any drips that fall into the gutter. Slope the gutter slightly such that, in the event of a major fail, the water will make a mess anywhere but directly over the lecky box.

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Tim Watts writes

I think you are suffering from *overlong project* syndrome. Take a break and come back re-invigorated:-)

[Lobster]

On 31 May 2014, Tim Watts grunted:

I do think you're overthinking it a bit.

Here, we have the bathroom directly above the hall/front door, which is where the CU lives. Bathroom is filled with mains-pressure pipes and joints, taps etc; the house is filled with irresponsible youngsters who would sooner stand ankle-deep in water and watch the shower tray overflow rather than fish their siblings' pubic hair out of the plug hole.

We've had our share of minor floods over 18 years, but touch wood it's never yet hit the CU. It's an obvious possibility but your risk is infinitessimally small in comparison with mine, and I can't say I loose sleep over it - if it happens, it happens.

I'd just go with the easy over-CU route if I were you. The pipe-within- pipe trick sounds like a Cunning Plan though, if it helps you sleep better.

[Tim Watts]

Luckily, to go with my OCD I have a little logical bit in my brain that seems to notice that shit - not enough to stop it but enough to go check it out. Same bit always stopped me doing really stupid stuff when I was mashed as a student :)

I've heard of CUs under the kitchen sink - never seen one though.

+1