OT:Windmills

[Roger Chapman]

nightjar > As to my earlier comments do you know of any real evidence that the Little

The subject is certainly badly understood by some people within the scientific community but the differing opinions don't mean they are all wrong and some at least are obviously driven by an agenda that has little to do with science.

Crowley (cited previously) has put a lot of effort in trying to accurately determine the circumstances of the MWP and in doing so has thrown light on those who would isolate one particular local aspect and then extrapolate that as concrete evidence of a global effect.

Then there are those who would look at data and see what that want to see regardless of the data. Dennis comes immediately to mind as well as the joker who claimed that the satellite data (also recently cited) shows no evidence of warming over the 20 years it covers.

Likewise the 95% water vapour school of thought who think it so obvious that they neglect (or more probably refuse) to say how they arrived at their figures (the Dribble approach).

[The Natural Philosopher]

I agree, but for different reasons. Its too far gone to stop if its going to happen.

And we will need MORE power, not less, to deal with the effects.

That puts us at the mercy of energy exporting countries, none of whom I trust.

[Roger Chapman]

Nothing like religious fervour to convince the true believer that nonsense is established fact.

So you say but but citings (from you) are there none.

It so happens that unlike you I still have an open mind.

Come on be brave and revisit the links I have given recently and set out clearly why you think that the mass of evidence isn't actually evidence at all. You won't of course. It is easy enough for you to make fatuous allegations but it will be impossible for you to substantiate them.

Another non sequitur.

So anything you don't agree with is guesswork. Anything that fits your fancy is solid dependable evidence.

[Clot]

This is a very good point.

At present, in the Liverpool bay, the North Hoyle exclusion zine is planted with operating windmills, The Rhyl Flats are presently being planted with windills and the Gwynt y mor exclusion zone is scheduled for another 250 any time soon.

There are dozens of ferries, container ships and fuel tankers passing through the area into Liverpool each day.

Note that the navigable area between the Rhyl Flats and the Gwynt y mor zones is quite limited. A rogue tanker in stormy condiions could do quite a bit of damage!

[Roger Chapman]

LI?

Well you could always drive less or, more importantly fly less, if you think saving carbon is important despite your failure to accept CO2 as an important greenhouse gas. Would also save you money if you are feeling the pinch.

Incidentally I too now drive a smaller car but as the largest was a Range Rover that doesn't necessarily prove much.

I bet Dennis doesn't fly less than I do.

[dennis]

You lose.

[dennis]

You still don't understand.. you have zero evidence for GW. You have a few observed facts from the past, a lot of unobserved "facts" from the past and a few mathematical models to predict the future.

However your mind is so open these real facts escape before you realise what has been said.

8<

That is your method of operating. You still have not posted a single piece of evidence for GW at all. You may think you have but in reality you have not. None of the graphs exceed past climate change events.

[Roger Chapman]

snip

There you go again. Absolute certainty based on nothing more than absolute ignorance.

How about a little wager - say £1000 or do you want to risk more of your money - say £10,000.

£10,000 says you haven't flown less miles than me.

[Roger Chapman]

Now you are being absurd. There is absolutely no doubt that the world is the best part of a degree warmer than it was 100 years ago.

So you look at that graph of satellite data for 20 years and think it either shows a steady state or a decline?

Come on then. Cite your real facts. Oh you won't! Of course you won't! Put them forward and we can tear them to pieces if they don't stand up to scrutiny.

What you say above is a very good approximation of the way you work but in relation to me it is just a great big lie.

I presume you mean that if the current situation is not warmer than all past events then GW doesn't exist. What a strange fantasy world you live in.

Incidentally "None of the graphs exceed past climate change events" is just gibberish.

[Clot]

Roger, you do know that dennis does not go above 30?

[dennis]

That is evidence of climate change, it has been changing for millennia. You have posted nothing as evidence of GW.

Try including the data from the early NOAA satellites that appears to have been disregarded. They have been recording satellite data for more than 20 years but only use the later stuff, why is that?

[dennis]

So you don't fly either, you still lose.

[Roger Chapman]

I lose only because you don't pay up.

[Roger Chapman]

Weasel words. The world has been warming up. That is GW. If this particular change isn't global warming then the only alternative is global cooling. But then turning figures on their head seems a speciality of yours.

Why don't you be brave and actually answer the question?

Does that alter the validity of the later series? Of course not. Has that prevented the sceptics from using that 20 years of data to claim there has been no warming? Of course not.

I don't actually know anything about earlier data but as you aren't going to post any links I shall take the easy option and assume you are into your usual trick of just making up 'facts' to suit your case.

[Roger Chapman]

snip

I know he says he never exceeds that speed limit but such people are normally either out and out liars or terribly bad at observing what speed they are actually driving at.

The only possible exceptions are those who have trouble driving at much lower speeds than 30mph. A TV program a few years back featured (among others) a man who had had the same car (an A30 or possibly an A35) from new. Even at 20 mph he couldn't keep the car in lane for more than a few seconds at a time.

Me - I am going to give up driving when I find 70mph to fast for comfort under any circumstances. The roads would be much safer if all those (and there are many) who are already in that situation gave up driving now rather than after then killed themselves or someone else. If you can't cope with 70 mph in easy circumstances you can't cope with an emergency at almost any speed.

[dennis]

Sorry but you can't have flown less than me so you still lose. Maybe you have flown backwards and think that counts as negative miles? Is the sort of thing you would believe if some eco scientist told you.

In case you don't understand the maths, 0 is not less than 0 so you are wrong, you have not flown less miles than I have. You really shouldn't make bets you don't intend to honour.

[dennis]

More weasel words from you I see, you were saying GW was caused by CO2 emissions not long ago and now you are attributing it to a mere rise in temperatures. The reality is the world has only been warming if you select a colder point in time for the base line.

You don't listen to anyone else's evidence so I am merely pointing you in the direction of evidence. If you go and look for it you will find it, then you may evaluate it to your satisfaction.

[Roger Chapman]

From time to time someone on this newsgroup demonstrates either their total stupidity or their total disregard for the truth. I suspect you are guilty on both counts.

The bet wasn't that I had flown less miles than you but that you hadn't flown less miles than me.

So where does that leave your honour?

I suggest you pay up forthwith or shut up for good.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I'll keep my fingers crossed they do then ;-)

[dennis]

Do you want to quote where I have said that or do you want to join geoff and TMH and be known as someone that can't read.

I even admitted to driving at 90+ while being followed by a police car with no worries at all.

So you are going to quit today then!

I find 70 mph is too fast to drive comfortably in many places and I expect most drivers do too. The fact that you don't implies that you have poor judgement.