OT: Why it is better to pretend you know nothing about computers

[Adrian C]

Er....

COSTELLO CALLS TO BUY A COMPUTER FROM ABBOTT.

ABBOTT: Super Duper computer store. Can I help you?

COSTELLO: Thanks. I'm setting up an office in my den and I'm thinking about buying a computer.

ABBOTT: Mac?

COSTELLO: No, the name's Lou.

ABBOTT: Your computer?

COSTELLO: I don't own a computer. I want to buy one.

ABBOTT: Mac?

COSTELLO: I told you, my name's Lou.

ABBOTT: What about Windows?

COSTELLO: Why? Will it get stuffy in here?

ABBOTT: Do you want a computer with Windows?

COSTELLO: I don't know. What will I see when I look at the windows?

ABBOTT: Wallpaper.

COSTELLO: Never mind the windows. I need a computer and software.

ABBOTT: Software for Windows?

COSTELLO: No. On the computer! I need something I can use to write proposals, track expenses and run my business. What do you have?

ABBOTT: Office.

COSTELLO: Yeah, for my office. Can you recommend anything?

ABBOTT: I just did.

COSTELLO: You just did what?

ABBOTT: Recommend something.

COSTELLO: You recommended something?

ABBOTT: Yes.

COSTELLO: For my office?

ABBOTT: Yes.

COSTELLO: OK, what did you recommend for my office?

ABBOTT: Office.

COSTELLO: Yes, for my office!

ABBOTT: I recommend Office with Windows.

COSTELLO: I already have an office with windows! OK, let's just say I'm sitting at my computer and I want to type a proposal. What do I need?

ABBOTT: Word.

COSTELLO: What word?

ABBOTT: Word in Office.

COSTELLO: The only word in office is office.

ABBOTT: The Word in Office for Windows.

COSTELLO: Which word in office for windows?

ABBOTT: The Word you get when you click the blue "W".

COSTELLO: I'm going to click your blue "w" if you don't start with some straight answers. What about financial bookkeeping? You have anything I can track my money with?

ABBOTT: Money.

COSTELLO: That's right. What do you have?

ABBOTT: Money.

COSTELLO: I need money to track my money?

ABBOTT: It comes bundled with your computer.

COSTELLO: What's bundled with my computer?

ABBOTT: Money.

COSTELLO: Money comes with my computer?

ABBOTT: Yes. No extra charge.

COSTELLO: I get a bundle of money with my computer? How much?

ABBOTT: One copy.

COSTELLO: Isn't it illegal to copy money?

ABBOTT: Microsoft gave us a license to copy Money.

COSTELLO: They can give you a license to copy money?

ABBOTT: Why not? THEY OWN IT!

(A few days later.)

ABBOTT: Super Duper computer store. Can I help you?

COSTELLO: How do I turn my computer off?

ABBOTT: Click on "START".............

[Bob Eager]

Yes, it does. But it's Wikipedia...so who cares? Some idiot will "re- correct" it!

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

[Albert Ross]

I was told a story once by a carpet fitter. He'd broken the corner off a tooth and the dentist whose carpet he was fitting noticed him grimacing.

"Just pop into my surgery and I'll soon fix that!" he said.

He ground the corner off the tooth in a few seconds.

Then presented the dumbfounded carpet fitter with a bill.

[dennis]

messagenews: [e-mail]...

On mine wordpad and notepad can open the file but not write to it if something else has it open. You have to use save as, I have no idea about pspad.

[Andy Champ]

[Andy Champ]

I agree with everything in there up to

"many software developers found it easier to port existing CP/M software to DOS than to the new version of CP/M".

We were firmly 8-bit, and stayed DR, going with MP/M before we went 16 bit.

Andy

[Daniel James]

Yes, I agree ... but I suspect that -- especially given the architecture of Windows in this regard -- there would be a price to pay for that. Either there would be an overhead in execution time or there would be an overhead in terms of code that every application was expected to provide to track filenames around rename/move operations (with all the bugs that such a requirement would lead to). Probably both.

I think I'd almost rather have the current brain-dead but understandably-so behaviour than any of the cans of worms that suggest themselves as alternatives.

Cheers, Daniel.

[Daniel James]

Some editors read the whole file into memory and close it, after which no locking remains (if there was any in the first place), while others keep the file open read/write with locks to stop other applications writing to it and screwing it up.

Notepad is certainly in the first camp, I thought WordPad was not (but I'm prepared to be wrong on that). Word is certainly in the second camp. PSPad I don't know.

There is another side to all of this, which is that an application that does allow other applications to write to its data file can check for such changes (Windows will notify it, even, if the correct code is in place for that to happen). This is the behaviour that you say PSPad exhibits.

What happens with PSPad if you open a file in two instances, change it in both of them, and then save one of the changed versions? Ideally you want to be able to preserve the changes you have mode to both copies -- probably to merge them together -- but this can be really hard to do correctly. It's much easier (for the programmer) to use locking to ensure that you don't get into that position in the first place, than to design and write code that helps you get out of it after the event. It's also a lot easier for the user to understand what the locking code is doing than it is to understand how to perform a complex interactive merge of two files.

Cheers, Daniel.

[Daniel James]

That's /almost/ what I said, yes. You're blaming Microsoft and I was blaming daft marketroids but the message was the same.

Cheers, Daniel.

[Clive George]

Nah, that's harder than it needs to be. Not sure about PSPad, but PFE tells you the file has changed and gives you the option to reload. No attempt at clever merging, and also no locking.

I really don't like windows file/directory locking. "Unable to delete directory". Why? Because I launched notepad or any other app with CWD being that.

No need for either. Simply tell you the file has changed - user can then decide what to do.

[Tim Streater]

Funny - even Microsoft manages it with no problems in Word 2008, as do various text editors such as TextWrangler.

It's not understandably so and neither is the way it works on the Mac a can of worms. It works as a reasonable person would expect it to.

[tony sayer]

Do remember that an awful lot of Steve F's thicko public have to use programmes like that, so in all perhaps a compromise but not really that much of a problem for those who know better!...

[tony sayer]

Right if there so good and necessary, then why is it that there're not on more desktops in the land then?...

More likely those who run the servers according to a mate of mine who spends an awful of time in such places. I note that Linux runs quite a bit of the net;)..

Seems a good idea but perhaps a touch to complex for your average Joe and Josephine .....

[Daniel James]

[snip]

"It" doesn't need anything. The needs are entirely those of the user.

One thing file locking can do is to prevent the user from making two sets of changes to the same file and then find he has to discard one set or the other when he comes to save them (or jump through hoops and "Save As" different things). I'd say that if you're not going to provide locking you really *ought* to provide the merge. It's all about user-friendliness (and remembering the level of expertise of the average user).

It matters far less with Notepad than with Word, of course, because "documents" edited in Notepad tend to be much shorter and simpler than those in Word.

No. The fact that some running app (and you can't tell which) is holding onto a directory so that you can't even delete it is clearly wrong. As I said: it's about user-friendliness, and that's not user friendly.

.. and the user will say "I just want to save both sets of changes in the same file -- it can't be that hard, surely?"

What do you say? "Yes, it's hard because our software is crap"? "Yes, it's hard because we let you do something that we shouldn't have"?

"No, it's not hard. Look, here's a 3-way diff of the original file and the two changed versions, please go through and select which version of each change you want to keep"?

It's much easier to implement AND easier for the user to understand if you just lock the file and prevent the situation from ever arising.

Note: I'm not saying that I think this is ideal, just that I'm pretty sure that's how the current situation came about.

Cheers, Daniel.

[dennis]

Its not even true in the first place. Nothing in linux or OSX stops a user installing malware. If you employ a social engineering approach to trick a linux user into installing some malware it will just let them. At least with windows the AV software might stop them or warn them. Just see what happens to linux security beliefs if the majority of users use it. Linux security is distorted by the fact that most linux users know a bit about security, or at least they used to, I am not so sure now the linux is invulnerable brigade have taken over.

[The Natural Philosopher]

There is another gotcha that got our Irish sysadmin (self styled). He was using Emacs to edit some system files.

Now what Emacs does, is rename the file it opens to ~filename, ie.e last copy, open it, and save it, with corrections if any, as filename.

HOWEVER if as is usually with Unix, the system file is HARD linked to a load of other names, these files still remain linked to ~filename.

The poor guy swore he had changed the files..but the changes were invisible to the OS.

He was the guy that bought the first sun server in our company, and called it 'Ariel' after the midsummer mights dream play. The next ones were supposed to be 'titania' 'oberon' and so on.

Sadly he took a holiday, and when the new machines arrived, they were promptly named 'surf, bold and persil'.

The moral being that no matter how clever a system you devise, it will always be a disaster in one set of circumstances, and that not all irishmen are called murphy.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Backwards compatibility.

And third party software.

And with MAC OSX , cost.

Its quite difficult to provide support for application on an OS which is by and large, subtly different on every distribution.

Ah, but you are better than that Tony.

I agree that to use linux, you have to either have been exposed to Unix elsewhere first, or have an overriding hatred of Windows arrived at by using it for a long time.

I had both ;-)

The above solution is the best yet for me.

[Man at B&Q]

[e-mail]...

Open in just notepad and wordpad. Both can save to the same file.

MBQ

[Man at B&Q]

That's what PSPad does.

Exactly.

MBQ

[dennis]

messagenews: [e-mail]...

messagenews: [e-mail]...

But it was about word and another. Neither can save to a file open in word.