OT-ish, pic/amtel programmer and software suggestions

[Gazz]

I will need to use a few usb input boards and a couple of lcd driver modules... again usb connected to the computer, lcd's i mean are the dot matrix black on green background jobbies that display 2 or so lines of text.

there seem to be loads of people out there who make their own usb input boards, same with lcd drivers, and analogue gauge drivers, relay modules etc. and they all centre around one of the programmable IC's

Seems it's either PIC or the amtel mega jobbies, people do seem to be producing more functions with the atmega based chips, but i have read that usb support on them is a pain in the arse, and most use usb to serial converters, where as the PIC based ones seem to handle usb easily.

so i'm sort of leaning towards the PIC based solutions, but a few circuits i'd like to try have the code based on the amtel chips, anyone know if it's possible to convert between the 2 code languages?

and any recomendations for a cheap beginners programmer, must be usb connected to the pooter as that's all the inputs i have on this new compooter, well, about 10 usb 2 sockets that are high power ones, 3 or 4 usb

3's and a couple of eSATA ports, oh and a firewire port.

likewise the software to use it, i have never programmed a chip before in my life, never done much programming either, but nowadays it seems pretty easy to use code already produced by others who share it.

about the only thing i know i want in a programmer is one of those lever clamp sockets for the chips, seem much better than a selection of dip sockets on a board that some seem to use,

[Bob Eager]

Ther's an Atmel chip that will do the job. The mega16u2, as I recall. It has USB and serial interfaces and just needs code. This code is in the Arduino (arduino.cc) and is freely available. Does a nice job on my Arduino and there is a downloadable Windows driver for it; again, freely available.

It's even worth getting an Arduino and doing development on that, to some extent.

The programmer I use isn't particularly cheap, but is flexible and soft upgradeable when a new chip comes out (they release new versions constantly, no extra charge). It has the ZIF socket (Zero Insertion Force, with the lever) and plugs into a USB port. It may be OTT for you - it's a Galep 5 - easily Googled (came out the first hit for me).

[The Other Mike]

If it's a single USB interface to a single LCD with a bit of processing in the middle then its around 10 quid for an AVR based Arduino (I'd suggest the Nano as it's dirt cheap) and a couple of quid for a 16 x 2 LCD, chuck in another fiver for a prototyping breadboard (all from Hong Kong/China on Ebay

Free development environment at

which includes libraries and sample code that interfaces to the display and serial port.

There is no need for a stand alone or in circuit programmer as you can develop the code on the PC and use the serial monitor in the development environment to monitor the USB messages.

This is a good place to start to acquire the basics

are quite a few others that google will turn up

There are also plenty of books on the subject that are floating around as torrents or just buy "Getting Started with Arduino"

PIC's have their place - but if you were to start from scratch with a PIC having had no previous experience you could still be pissing around in 6 months flashing an LED, but you could have an Arduino based solution to interfacing USB and an LCD up and working in a few hours.

[Bob Eager]

If it's a Nano, it'll have the FTDI USB interface which means no driver download needed. I was thinking more, if the OP wants to 'play', of prototyping on a real Arduino and then perhaps going on from there with a custom circuit.

I agree. I have it all running on FreeBSD now, as well. Although my Uno doesn't want to reset - time to get the scope out and see where the problem lies (I suspect the FreeBSD driver to the USB interface chip).

For more detailed stuff, the O'Reilly "Arduino Cookbook" is good too.

Well....the PICAXE stuff means one can get stuff going pretty quickly too.

[Gazz]

oh i want to play thats for sure, tho i am maybe thinking for the first one get one of the usb - lcd backboards, this is so i can get one of the beginners books on the arduino that has projects in it to work through, and start slowly and learn something, rather than just download some code, write it to the chip and connect a few wires and have no idea what is going on.

i have at least one more lcd i will need to hook up to the computer, then i want input boards, i.e. simple buttons/keypad matrix's to usb, then led output boards, and hopefully something to drive automotive gauges or servo hacked gauges,

[The Natural Philosopher]

aha!

I'd probably go with an arduino to start with - I havent 'taken the plunge' myself but two people I know, have.

Just get one with enough pins coming you to do the job - and of course the possibility of using lost of them one to drive each dial and one to do the master stuff all chattering via USB or something, exists.

When you get to the 'final layout' try and keep it generic so the money spent on the PCB may have application elsewhere..

[Dave Liquorice]

Or you could by somthing from Matrix rbital that has display/input as a ready built module that "just works" with something like LCDProc (not for windoze though).

Naw, that's all too easy, reinvent the wheel, it'll do what you want then.

[Man at B&Q]

Don't tar others with your own inadequacies.

MBQ

[Gordon Henderson]

You think so? The serial solution makes it really easy for the targer microcontroller to take/put data back to the host - it's just serial data - and the USB hardstuff is encided inside a chip - rs232 one side, usb the other.

Almost all PCs running WIndoes/Linux/Mac can talk to the usb serail convertors - it just makes it looks like an extra serial port to the host..

At a high-level, sort-of.

I've written a wodge of C that initially ran inside a Atmel 8-bit chip which I ported to an 8-bit PIC chip, however I had to re-write all the very-low level stuff to suit each platform.

Both had USB serial convertors...

Get an Arduino. It's USB serial - the dev. boards have lots of on-board IO (digital and analogue), and there are drivers for various LDC devices too.

The Arduino IDE (Integrated Developmen Environment) is relatively easy to use - if you can program in C/C++)

Most stuff at this level are programmed over a serial link of some sort

- the AVR and PIC platforms I've used basically self-program - they run their own programmer, accepting data ove the serial line and can re-flash their own internal flash (hopefully preserving the bootloader!)

Gordon

[The Natural Philosopher]

Or BASIC :-(

>

[Adam Aglionby]

+1 for Arduino

Its simple enough to get going that have seen atrtists ,with no interest in programming, get an Arduino to get what the want it to do in a matter of hours. Its a library based enviroment so things like LCDs and servos can be used , simply by using the routine, servo pan and tilt on a joystick for a small CCTV camera took me about half an hour, and can`t program for toffee. Ditto with the `shield` system, LCDs, sensors, keypads, motor drivers, relays they all just plug together and cost coins on ebay.

There is something to be said for getting things working and then understanding in depth how they work later, keeps the enthusiasm going.

Cheers Adam

[Bob Eager]

As with an Arduino or a PICAXE, both of which can be programmed in- circuit.

[Tim Streater]

Yes. I bought a USB - 2-serial-port job to use on my Mac, downloaded the software from the chipmaker's site and Bob's yer Oncle. I connect the two serial ports to my 68000 board.

[The Other Mike]

With the Arduino's modules that have USB on board you'd never need to remove any chip nor in most cases use in circuit programming.

Atmel AVR ISP's are about 15 quid (USBtinyISP) but you don't really need them unless you are hell bent on designing your own bespoke boards with soldered in chips (or surface mount) or you need all the memory space. Using the Arduino bootloader with USB to a PC is much easier and you don't need a separate PSU as in most cases the standard USB supply is sufficient for most purposes.

One thing to note is it's hardly worth rolling your own Arduino from bare bits.

It's 6 quid or so for a Atmel 328 chip (28 pin skinny dip from Farnell

- reducing to about 3.80 in qty >10) a quid for a crystal and a couple of caps, another 50p for a socket, then the board to mount it on, and the time wiring it up. Then you either need the ISP dongle as mentioned above to program it, or a serial to USB converter- off the shelf that's a fiver to about fifteen quid for an FTDI based solution depending on the source (HK vs mainline distributors in the UK) then maybe 3 or 4 led's and a reset switch.

You can get an entire Arduino Nano 328 mounted on a pcb, with headers, led's, reset switch, with an FTDI USB chip, including shipping from HK for less than a tenner. That plugs directly into a breadboard, or can be soldered into a bit of stripboard, or hardwired. Hell if you are that worried about replacing it then stick it in a couple of rows of socket strip and if it goes wrong buy another one. The delivery time from HK is often faster than buying it in the UK!

[Bob Eager]

I agree, although it's worth noting that the Uno doesn't use the FTDI chip; instead, it uses an ATmega16U2, which even from Farnell is only £2.75.

[Ghostrecon]

Even more OT...

anybody else looking seriously at the raspberry Pi

release date end of feb $35 for networked version and $25 for basic version

[Gazz]

Right, lets see if i have the right end of the stick here,

i buy one of the Arduino uno kits, have a play about with it, make a led flash, then make a few flash in sequence, make a servo move on command and so on,

Then i hook up the lcd i have in the ticket machine, send the uno the code to work it, and if it all works, i can then etch a pcb which will take the chip off the arduino board and the extra components i have added on the breadboard, plus a usb connector and so on, and i should have a custom board that interfaces the lcd to the usb port on any computer.. that is running what ever proggy i use to send it the data... lcdsmartie looks promising,

i buy a new chip for the arduino uno board, play around with the pwm outputs, and get it driving a gauge or 2, and do the same thing as with the lcd board??

i know others mentioned arduino boards can be had for less than the parts to make one, so i may go that route, but just want to check i'm going down the right road here.

i guess if that works, at first i will do individual boards for each item they control, then work on multi function boards.

[The Other Mike]

As does the Arduino Mega, but like the FTDI chip its still surface mount (isn't everything!) so it's either design and outsource a complete pcb with solder mask, or buy a breakout board and I haven't managed to find a cheap source - I suppose it might even be worth making up a batch with various pinouts. There are times I think surface mount stuff is really useful in a final design when you can justify a commercially produced PCB but for prototyping it can be a PITA.

Although the Uno is much more robust I tend to use the Nano on breadboards as a 30 pin 0.6" DIP despite the USB sockets having a tendency to fall off after a few months.

The wierd pin spacing on the 'big' Arduno modules (were they on LSD laced pasta when they came up with that idea?) and the grief that causes with a stripboard shield is also a major reason for me to use something like the Nano that is consistently 0.1" thoughout and mount the Nano on the baseboard rather than piggy back something 'above'

[The Other Mike]

Interfacing most things like the LCD's, switches, led's etc is simply a case of wiring, a few passive components and your code. The USB requirement isn't so easy. If you need a USB interface in your final design then, as all the USB interface chips to my knowledge are surface mount devices, you need a PCB with a solder mask to stop bridging between pins, not something that is readily manufactured in a home prototyping environment. Even if you could produce a solder mask coating the pin spacing also makes it near impossible to achieve satisfactory results with home etching.

So you'd need to buy something like Ebay 220907010043 that has the USB interface brought out to a 0.1" pin header...and then buy the arduino chip and all the other bits at which point you'd realise how futile it is to roll your own

Or you could simply stick to 0.1" spacing devices, as it used to be before surface mount arrived but using something like this with

*everything* onboard with no need to unplug anything, or swap chips.

don't pay Rapid's prices! just a tenner on Ebay. Prototype it on a breadboard - unlike almost all other ardunos it simply plugs in. Then when the design is finished you can etch a PCB at home, simply treat the nano as a 30 pin 0.6" dip package.

[Adam Aglionby]

Who`s not interested! a linux box on a card with HD video playback, will start getting excited when they actually start shipping.

Cheers Adam