A local firm with has just replaced a Hot water (immersion) tank in our small studio flat. The reason was because the existing "shelf" was bending under the weight. They did the shelf work ok but now the tank is leaking - seems it's split at the bottom seam somewhere! When I called they said "we don't break tanks". But it wasn't leaking before
- and now it is.
Basically are now saying it's our problem and nothing to do with them
- and btw a replacement has to be in stainless steel. This a large cost for us. Yes, they are correct in that the tank has been there over 10 years - but they knew that when they started the job and didn't comment on it. Do we have any realistic claim against them for the cost of a new tank?
It *may* be that the tank had corroded over the years and had a weak point that finally cracked when the support was removed and replaced (I presume they drained the cylinder before doing the work...).
I'd hope that a reputable company would have warned you before they started that this was a risk on a tank of that age so you could come to a mutual agreement beforehand about who would bear the cost if it happened - eg maybe that they would pay labour and you would pay parts, or something like that.
In absence of them commenting on it when they knew the age of the tank, you are right to at least raise the question. If they were negligent (eg replaced shelf with tank full, or bashed tank or have installed new shelf at different height so tank is now strained) they you have a valid claim. If not, I wonder whether you might have to bite the bullet and pay the cost - but maybe not use them again: not because you had to pay for the tank but because they didn't warn you in advance about the risk.
Yes I suppose so. I did wonder about the draining of the tank becuase it has *no* drain valve. The weight is ~ 300lbs full, I think, which is a mighty big force to drop on the ground or even "walk" it on the floor. I've been told that these tanks are usually drained by siphoning - just wish I'd been there while they were doing the work.
It was not leaking on the bending shelf - ever. It only started leaking AFTER they worked on it - on their new *level* steady shelf. It is a reputable make, stamped and manufact. details on it. Best perhaps to read, rather that read-into a post first.
A tank with no drain c*ck at the bottom. That's weird. I'd never thought of siphoning the water out: it would be a faff because the outlet joint at the top would have to be unsoldered to gain access for the siphon tube (that's OK if it's compression rather than soldered joint).
Does it have an immersion heater element as well? If so, does that go vertically into the top or horizontally into the side, near the bottom? In the latter case, you'd need to drain the cylinder to change that as well, which would convert a big job into a much bigger one.
Yes, hot water cylinders are VERY heavy when full of water. Cylinder of water about 1 m tall by 50 cm diameter is a lot of water:
pi r^2 l
gives 3.14 x 0.25^2 x 1 m^3
ie 0.20 m^3 or 0.2 tonnes - 200 kg, or more than twice my weight.
My old house had a combined header tank and hot water cylinder (ie tank joined onto cylinder and with an internal feed from tank to cylinder). The immersion heater blew one night when the Economy 7 turned on, and made a hell of a bang and left black skid marks all over the fuse box.
That was a nightmare to replace, because the drain c*ck was on the back so I had to walk the tank round by 180 degrees while it was full before I could attach a hosepipe and drain it - which seemed to take forever! I'd hired a socket spanner of the right size (big bugger - about 15 cm diameter) and bought a suitable replacement element, but it took several attempts to thread it in because the weight of the element made the thing twist so I kept getting crossed threads. And of course, turning the tank to get at the drain c*ck meant I had to unbolt the cold water inlet, the overflow and the hot water outlet - at least they were compression rather than solder joints.
At least I didn't make the catastrophic mistake that a colleague at work once made. When I was recounting the hassle I'd had, he confessed that he'd once unscrewed the element without draining the tank so once it was almost unscrewed, the water pressure ripped off the final thread and the element shot out and hit him in the belly, closely followed by a "tube" of hot water
15 cm wide which scalded him and then soaked the carpet with some 200 litres of water. Her indoors was *not* pleased :-)
If sitting on a bent shelf the stresses may have bedded in over years, to suddenly re-shelf may have caused new stress points, excuse my terminology but I know what I mean. Personally I think your are on an uphill struggle to get them to pay unless you can prove where damage was caused by them.
I think you may have to take the hit on this - and do a lot of inward swearing and cursing as you stump up the cost, just like I had to when I was faced with an unexpected bill for a new catalytic converter on my car because the garage had found that the nuts attaching pipes to the old one had seized when they were removing it to change the diesel particulate filter, which in itself was a large bill.
Look at it like this (as I did with my car). It's one hell of a bill (for my car, it cost about the same as the car is now worth, though the car is worth more to me as a working vehicle than as scrap) but at least it had had a good life and would have probably have needed replacing anyway, even if the replacement support hadn't provoked the final failure. Just like my DPF and cat - the car had done 156,000 miles so they would have been due for replacement even if they hadn't gone wrong or threads hadn't seized during replacement.
It's very tempting to blame the person who finds or provokes the fault which has probably been lurking there for years.
Yes - if it's split, it was probably about to anyway. Which leaves you in a weak position in a small claims court of law. It ought to have managed more than 10 years, but sitting on a bent shelf, as an outsider who doesn't know any of these details, sounds like the most likely explanation for its premature demise.
I've no idea if there's any mileage in moving it, soldering or epoxying new sheet onto the base and reinstating. I've always regarded solder as very weak, but apparently soldering patches onto somewhat pressurised pipe is workable.
There is no way that it could have been removed full of water. Are you Really sure that the leak is from a seam and not from a bad connection to the cylinder? If it is copper, 10 years is nothing.
Probably not unless you can prove by some means that they dented it or whatever, a straight leak due to movement or creep could have happened any time after all, This sounds like one for the if it aint broke don't fix it file. I'd suggest that if the shelf was not actually going to colapse, that it might have goon one without leaking for quite a time. I've seen perfectly good looking seems start to leak just by doing some plumbing re routing in an airing cupboard. The tank has to be emptied stresses put on it while the pipes are re affixed etc, then the tank refilled. all these various stresses will be outside the normal ones experienced for the last ten years.
If I was faced with that situation I would be inclined to try to find a loc al car hobbyist group and DIY it (assume engine removed for that labour cos t ?) Simon.
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