Gosh! You don't say!
Wow!
Er, where did he say they were?
Where did anyone claim otherwise?
You have just demonstrated you know f**k all about what happens to the grid due to fluctuations in renewable energy.
MBQ
Grid tie inverters generate whatever frequency they "see" on the gird connection. So their operation has no effect of the grid frequency.
However the local voltage changes. My PV panel increases local voltage (in my house) by around 2 volts when running flat out. My 16Kw shower drops the local voltage by seven volts when in use.
If I lived in town, it would be less than that. There would be larger cables and transformers.
Not when they're only generating a tiny percentage of demand, no. If they were in the same proportion as the German installations, then they would, as the grid frequency would vary with the load on the thermal, non-renewable, generators.
With a correspondingly higher user density, and while *your* shower might not drop the voltage by 7 volts, when everyone on your street takes a shower or puts the kettle on, the drop is likely to be about the same. In the same way, if everybody had PV panels, the local voltage in the street would rise by a couple of volts in sunny weather.
The grid has been built as cheaply as possible to give the required performance. Voltage variations through the day are roughly the same no matter where you are, unless you are next to a substation.
On 02/05/13 15:47, harry lied again:
More unsupported drivel.
nuclear is way more competitive than any renewable bar wast burning and hydro.
The argument with EDF is on account of them wanting 10p a unit guaranteed,. renewable onshore is guranteed at 15p.
It costs more to build an offshore wind farm than a nuke of simar capacity which will produce 12 times work electricity over its service life.
There is no problem with waste disposal.
the output from their inverters is.
However none of what you say has any relevance to what I was talking about anyway. Its another weak attempt at a pathetic straw man.
Piss off harry.
Wossa matter? cant sell any solar panels anymore?
Yeah but we had that discussion. Voltage swings cause frequency changes, unless you take steps to compensate for them - more coal in the boiler, or fiddle with the exciter current.
So even though your devices are not in themselves causing a frequency swing, they are causing a voltage swing, and that causes spin speed instability in synchronous rotating generators.
Andy
In message , The Natural Philosopher writes
If you drastically changed the excitation current (either way), the generator speed will unlock from the mains, and massive currents will start pulsating in or out at the difference frequency. Presumably, they have devices which detect such a condition, and these rapidly disconnect the generator from the system, and also remove the power from the drive shaft.
His generation is on the distribution network. If the volts rise the taps change at the bulk supply point although 2v at 230v is SFA in the grand scheme of things as its buried in the noise of everything else.
Germany might be different because of the scale of deployment and location of the generation but in the UK embedded solar generation is viewed simply as reduced demand (an an irritation) As much as it pains me to say, a few thousand roofs adorned with solar panels make bugger all difference to the operation of the UK Grid, the only damage is the pocket of consumers who are being forced to subsidise FIT parasites.
I have to point out that the solar inverters have a very stringent frequency range over which they are allowed to operate.
They will drop out if the grid exceeds that range.
The Japanese goverment is trying to get their nukes back online but the public aren't happy. I don't think they have much oil/coal generation but do have gas and a recent Japanese delegation to Russia talked about gas supplies...
Think they had a change of government and are sayng 'nukes on or 30% inflation; your choice' or something.
Its pathetic. Fukushima was a mere minor ripple in a massive disaster that that killed thousands and decimated huge tracts of land.
The problem is the Japs don't trust their politicians even more than we don't ours.
And the politicos don't understand radiation themselves.
So they cant be convincing.
Nonsense. If you introduce a sudden surge of extra current then it will result in the grid frequency rising. The grid tie inverter will then have to track it. So the cause is indirect, but it still happens.
on the gird connection. So their operation has no effect of the grid frequency.
Why should a "sudden surge of extra current" change the frequency? I can see you have no knowledge at all of this topic.
Why would it not?
I can see you have no knowledge at all of this topic.
He's spent quite lot of time and wasted many bytes of data transmission proving this over the last few days.
Because it will result in a sudden unloading of the spinning generating kit. This will result in a rise in rotation speed (yes even if you have a second order control system built into the governor)
It must seem like magic to you harry.
In message , harry writes
Well, du-uh harry
Have you TOTALLY missed the many discussions on phase angle which have been had recently here
Nice in theory... now what about the bulk of the UK housing stock that is not and never will be?
All new houses should be built to this standard. Plenty could be converted.
Where "plenty" amounts to a small minority...
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