OT: A more insightful analysis than one might have expected

https://varoufakis.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/syd-u-lecture-creditors-uninterested-in-getting-their-money-back-the-eurozone-paradox.pdf
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On 12:10 28 Jun 2016, John Rumm wrote:

Varoufakis's lack of repentance is always great value although primarily for entertainment.
One of his central arguments seems to be that Greece's voracious appetite for German motor cars (made possible by exceedingly generous EU grants and financing) should somehow be blamed on the German car producers who made a profit. It was not just cars that the Greeks gorged themsleves on but other goods too.
The truth is Greece got easy money by faking statistics about the state of its economy (and the EU conveniently looked the other way) which it wasted by riding high on a hog for years until one day the party was over. What did Greece think it was doing? Did it really think it had a near infinite bank loan at giveaway rates to further ingulge itself and prop up its widespread corruption and its addiction to tax avoidance.
This was all made worse when Varoufakis miscalculated that the EU could not afford to let Greece leave the EU. Accordingly he put his game theory notions into action to create his bizarre (but highly entertaining) negotiating strategy based largely on brinkmanship which only ratcheted up Greece's misery.
His Paris Match photo shoot displaying a comfortable life style didn't exactly help either. :-)
Our days would be cloudier without him.
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On 28/06/2016 12:59, pamela wrote:

Indeed - there is no getting away from the fact that they got way to happy with the cheque book!

That however is far more worrying.
Its the reported comments from the ex German banker about the eurozone lending policy, and the follow on bail outs that are quite revealing though.

They probably figured that all the time they could create (at least apparent) growth that exceeded their rate of debt growth they were "safe". Shame no one thought about what happens when recession or an unexpected "shock" to the system comes along.

Yup, that was rather novel....
EU: Here Greeks, have a really bad deal Varoufakis: Nope we are not prepared to accept that EU: You must accept it, or the shit will really hit the fan! Varoufakis: Nope still not playing EU: OK the shit has really hit the fan, all we can offer you now is an even worse deal! Varoufakis: That will do nicely!

Yea well, that's (some) socialists for you...

Not sure that's true for the Greeks mind.
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On 16:48 28 Jun 2016, John Rumm wrote:

On a separate point how has Greece (which in ancient times was the cradle of Western civilisation and gave birth of Western thought) end up so hopelessly decrepit today? The place looks like dust bowl and the food is terrible too.
By contrast, after a bit of a blip Ancient Rome bequeathed us the Rennaisance and the subsequent rise of Italy and Europe which is maintained to this day.
Maybe the voluble Mr Varoufakis also has an answer to this. :-)
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On 28/06/16 19:38, pamela wrote:

Good grief!
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Because they were the first to do that stuff.

Because that stuff you listed didn’t last long there.
In modern times they were always way behind the rest of the civilised world and had a full civil war quite recently.

Because it rains less there.

Plenty would disagree with you about that.

Except that Italy is still a political shambles even now.
And I was amazed when I discovered that many of the local italians can't even understand other local italians with they arent speaking english. Where I live has ended up dominated by italian immigrants, maybe not quite half the locals, who mostly came here after the war.

He hasn’t got an answer for anything, typical rabid lefty IMO.
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On 01:08 29 Jun 2016, Rod Speed wrote:

You can visit some countries today and easily detect cultural traditions arising out of their history. But if you go to Greece, apart from the ancient ruins, you may as well be in Albania or Moldovia when to comes to detecting anything from its extremely impressive past.

It's not just the climate but also weak farming. Too much of the countryside is still just subsistence farming and is so undeleloped that you almost expect to bump into Socrates coming up the road!

It may be subjective but Greece is never going to top a list of countries with the best food.

Italy as a state is relatively young and local identity remains strong which includes those very different local dialects and yummy local food.
Despite that, culturally and economically Italy is in the first division along with most of the rest of Europe. I remember how back in the 1980s Italy was proud to have overtaken the UK in terms of GDP per capita although mainly by taking account of its large and dodgy shadow economy. Didn't last long though.
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Sure, but it is only really with China and Japan where that is true of stuff that happened all that long ago. It certainly isnt true of Italy.

Yes, but that is just as true of Egypt and Persia etc too.

Its not weak farming, it’s not a very fertile area at all.

There isnt a lot of that area that isnt.

You said the exact opposite just above.

No maybe about it.

Very little of what you see in Italy food wise has anything to do with what happened at the height of the Roman Empire.

Yes, but so is modern Greece.

True in spades of modern Greece.

Yes, but you don’t see as much of that with Greece.

Very little of that has anything to do with what happened when Rome dominated the world.

That is very arguable indeed with southern italy particularly.

Yep, its never been viable politically in modern times.
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On 12:27 29 Jun 2016, Rod Speed wrote:

Can I pass on this one, Rod? I like to think you want to engage in useful discussion but by taking points out of context, raising unimportant exceptions and overlooking the original ideas, this exchange is quickly heading into ever deeper misunderstanding.
It's not that what you say is entirely wrong. It isn't. It's that this seems to be going off at so many tangents, some based on misinterpretations of what was said, that I wonder what we are now discussing.
I started with comments about Western civilisation and Western thought with respect to Greece but now I see Persia, Egypt, China and Japan. I mentioned the Renaissance as an important addition to Ancient Rome but you are comparing only the ancient world. I am not even sure how Roman cuisine is part of this discussion as I mentioned modern day Italian cuisine. When I mention the shadow economy at the end you reply about political viability.
It's all every well to widen the discussion but I think there's nothing useful to be gained here by debating the points further.
Let's move on.
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On 30/06/16 13:36, pamela wrote:

God you must be new here Pamela That's Rod Speed FFS.
His trolling is well honed, and he doesn't mean a thing he says. He just likes to mess with peoples heads.
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Nope.

That's dishonest.

We're seeing you do what you always do when your nose is rubbed in the problem with your original claims.

Just one minor aside. Much more was about western civilisation.

I did nothing of the sort with how recent the state is with modern Italy and Greece.

You brought up Greek food yourself.

Because that is the reason for the shadow economy there.

No thanks.
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On 6/28/2016 12:10 PM, John Rumm wrote:

Glanced at it, but it started to make my brain hurt. Have filed away on Google Drive to look at in periods of insomnia.
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On Tue, 28 Jun 2016 12:10:26 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

uninterested-in-getting-their-money-back-the-eurozone-paradox.pdf
Scary stuff.
I read it through in several chunks.
Makes me glad that we are out of the Euro, and sorry for Greece.
The central premise seems to be that the so called Greek bail out was in fact all a subterfuge by Germany to inject money into their failing banks without breaching EU rules.
How long can they keep doing that?
Cheers
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On Wednesday, 29 June 2016 18:16:37 UTC+1, David wrote:

Politics has been that way since it began 10s of thousands of years ago.
NT
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Even sillier than you usually manage. Banks hadn't even been invented then.
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On Wednesday, 29 June 2016 23:47:11 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:

Lol
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You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag.
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On 29/06/16 18:16, David wrote:

And why did they want to?
To my mind, and I expect to be called a racist by some lefty, but here's how I see it:
1) If the EU had remained as the EEC, it would have been simpler;
2) Barring 1, if the EU had had minimum economic criteria for membership, it would have been better. Something like:
a) If you have an economy on parity with the UK, France, Germany, then you can join as a full member with full freedom of movement.
b) If not a) then you can join EU-Lite, which gets you:
i) Preferential trading with the Club;
ii) Limited movement - eg VISA and work permit free movement for 30-60 days per year, after that you need to have a work permit from a job you managed to secure. This rule is at the discretion of the home nation and the employer's nation.
3) No Euro. Or if they really must have, then full members only.
4) Absolutely no making laws across the bloc. If they want to ban Glyphosate for use on crops destined for EU wide trading, fair enough - but if the nation wants to use the product at home, or on crops not destined for EU trade, they can.
======= We could have had a lot of the advantages without the side effects.
The biggest single mistake is letting countries with weak, or basket case, economies and governments join with strong countries.
I have no problem with trying to help small nations develop with loans and good trading terms (eg Eire, who did quite well) - but they don't get to join EU-Full until they've proved themselves.
I think that would have solved a lot of the problems.
Of course, it's completely at odds with Expansionalism!
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And then they wrapped the sodding Euro around the mess, thus making it shitloads worse.
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On 29/06/16 19:18, Tim Streater wrote:

Its just a huge ego trip - look at us we are so Important.
In fact the barely achieved a trade deal, ruined the economny, and all they have done is throw money at their supporters
Total wankers.
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