New easy to install DIY solar panels technology

Precisely.

Which makes wind energy essentially useless a a large scale part of electricity generation without some form of carry over energy storage.

Or the ability to run the country off batteries of some sort (including e.g.pumped storage) for several days on end.

In the limit, that's why you need 6 times as much peak capacity as your average needs. It could be worse. Let's say that on the bad patches only

40% of your kit is working at only 30% of its rated output.and the rest ain't working at all..a mere 12% of its 'rated output'

Which is why wind energy will NEVER be more than a small fraction of generating capacity.

Dynamo Dave keeps spouting on about '30%-35% average load factor' So what? in the end if your power goes out for 5% of the year, who cares that your average performance is good.

Heck, I won't tolerate even 0.3% - one DAY of total power cuts.

That's precisely the issues the Danes are finding. The more windmills they plug into the grid in preference to baseband reliable power, the more expensive and inefficient gas turbines they need to back them up when they can't actually do the job.

IF we had a cheap way to store the energy, it would be fine. We don't..not at the sorts of scales we need. Not for days on end.

The pumped storage systems in place can supply a few percent of total - they are very useful for smoothing out extremely short duration peaks and troughs, but not for maintaining huge energy reservoirs.

I suppose you could make hydrogen, and then burn it in gas turbines at

30% efficiency. Not hugely useful..fuel cells at that power level have never been attempted.
Reply to
The Natural Philosopher
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The ferries would have been cheaper than they were and therefore...

??? that seems to be arse about face frankly.

The chunnel wiped out the hovercraft for sure, but the ferries continue to be cost effective and as cheap as, or cheaper than the chunnel.

What is starting to make it work is high speed capital to capital trains..

I used to commute to Brussels..once..the ferries versus the aircraft, used to be about an hour or so longer, given the issues of hiring a car at Heathrow..I was working within taxi/bus distance of Zaventem..

Howver with the sorts of security issues today, I doubt there is any difference in transit times.

And probably the train would not be a lot worse..

Its a shade over 2 hours on te eurostart..now to get to London from here probably would take..mm. 45 minutes to the station, say an hour to london..then an hour in cross laiondon and 'wastage. due to train times not exactly coinciding, then 2 hours to brussells..and about 45 minutes oiut to te airport etc.. so about 5 1/2 hours door to door.

IIRC I used to leave here around 5am to get in by 1pm...so 8 hours driving..

About 7 hours on the plane..door to door

The return fare would be around about £115 all in economy including the car costs..mm. Not too bad with fuel being the price it is now..

Yup. I think next time I go to Brusslels, it would be Eurostar/Chunnel..

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Hour to cross London? KX -> St Pancras is about 5 minutes walk...

Reply to
Clive George

Liverpool st actually. And I said 'wastage..'

If the tubes aren't closed, if the train arrives on time (it never does)..

anyone who expects to get off a train that is targeted to arrive in Liverpool street on the hour, and catch one that departs St Pancras ten minutes later, hasn't done it in real life ;-)

The days of 'guaranteed connections' are long gone. One of the reasons people prefer their cars.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

With luggage no, and one has to allow check in times at St Pancras.

Reply to
Andy Hall

If that were true, we could charge them off the windmills.

Andy

Reply to
Andy Champ

Last time this came up, another site in the north was suggested - I can't remember if it was the Solway, or Morecambe bay, one of those. But when I dug it turned out the tides were a nice 6 hours away from the Severn. Which means between them they have a steady generation rate.

The cabling to move the power around is perhaps more of an issue.

Andy

Reply to
Andy Champ

I've done train and plane to Paris.

The train wins hands down.

Walk to local station, change platforms at Waterloo (oh drat, they've broken that!) change platforms at Gare du Nord, take Métro, walk to company I'm visiting.

Drive to LHR. Park in long-term. Get bus to terminal. Check in. Wait a couple of hours. Fly to Charles de Gaulle. RER to Gare du Nord, then it's the same. Terribly broken up.

The Eurostar gives you time for a meal on board as well.

Andy

Reply to
Andy Champ

The message from Andy Champ contains these words:

The Severn is undoubtedly the best site but more than one oppo is needed both because it will take several other sites just to match the Severns output and because, as at present proposed, the generators would only work when the tide is flowing and then for only for a part of the time.

Most of the power would be needed in England (Scotland exports power) so going too far North would increase transmission costs but don't forget they get tides on the East and South Coasts as well. :-)

Reply to
Roger

Yes, I agree. Far more usable time. If they had wireless working on the train, even better.

Even with the trek from Waterloo to St Pancras, I still think that it's interesting although they should have completed the lounge facilities before opening it.

I'm sure that LHR T5 will be broken on opening as well, but on a far grander scale. Plenty of opportunity there for them to abuse customers.

I did win one battle with BAA though. Gradually the notices that tell their customers:

"Please have your passports and boading cards ready"

are being changed to

"Please have your passport and boarding card ready"

I pointed out to them that I don't have dual nationality and neither am I traveling on multiple flights at the same time.

Reply to
Andy Hall

At huge expense, yes.

Oh, and it is true. Still expensive, still a bit fragile, but they are in yer mobile phones and laptops already..

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Yeah..why not put a dam across the channel between dover and calais?

Sod the shipping..who needs it?

Hey, we could make locks and charge the whole or Europe congestion charges!

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

The message from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

Do not mock.

The English Channel is one of the most crowded sea lanes in the world, if not the most crowded, but at lower traffic densities a barrage just might have been a valid alternative to the Chunnel. The Suez and Panama canals function quite well for levels of shipping traffic well in excess of that for any single port.

Reply to
Roger

On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 14:13:18 +0000 someone who may be The Natural Philosopher wrote this:-

Then the lights would already be flickering in Scotland and presumably when we get above 10% they will start going out.

Time will tell, but I predict that when we get to 105 and above the lights will not go out, at least not due to problems with wind generated electricity.

Reply to
David Hansen

If you can find two similar sized sites with tides 6 hours apart each one fills in the gaps in the other's output. I don't think there are any, apart from the Severn, in the SE of the UK with big tides and the right time difference.

6 hours BTW - I mean 6.5 really, you want the peak flow in one to coincide with the peak levels in the other. 2 sine waves roughly.

Andy

Reply to
Andy Champ

Those batteries are fine for little gadgets. I wouldn't want to power London off a set though.

Andy

Reply to
Andy Champ

We don't need to find two with diametrically opposed times. Our demands are irregular and tidal would only be part of the mix - i.e. we should still have other sources such as CCGT, coal, nuclear, etc.

Personally, I'm a sailor of coastal waters who wears green wellies and don't find tidal attractive, though I do find the windmills off N Wales ( N Hoyle) attractive!

As, perhaps, strangely to others, I do find the turbines just N of Cardiff set out on the hillside a pleasant sight. However, I do appreciate that we all have different likes and dislikes.

Reply to
Clot

Two highs, two lows a day (roughly) so 4 sets of peak flow (in and out) which is every 6 hours, so you need two sites with tides *three* hours apart...

Andy

Reply to
Andy Champ

Am I missing something? Our demands on the system have peaks that do not coincide with the lunar cycle of the tides. We need a mix of electricity generation that can cope with the variations.

Reply to
Clot

The message from "Clot" contains these words:

No, ideally we want enough sites with different peaks to provide an approximately level output 24/7.

Seems to me you are.

Within the constraints of ebb and flow there is some scope for varying output to match demand.

With your sailors cap on you are also missing the point that there wouldn't be a great number of these schemes, almost certainly considerably less than the number of off shore wind farms planned and, while I am no sailor, I would have thought that off shore wind farms potentially imposed a far greater blight on coastal sailing than tidal barrages as well as being a great deal more intrusive in the land/seascape.

Reply to
Roger

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