Measuring glass.

I have a wood Victorian front door. At some time, the top panels were changed to glass - and that horrible ribbed stuff. The top of the panel is a semi-circle.
I'm going to change them to 'etched' glass with a thin clear border. Same as I've done with the fanlight which now includes the house number, and looks very nice.
But because of the curve the glass place wants a template.
Obviously I can measure the outside wood running round the glass easily - but the rebate is more difficult.
So what is the minimum overlap of the glass behind the wood into the rebate? 3mm? 5mm? (per side) If it is too small I could adjust the position. If too big, more of a problem. It will be laminated glass.
Rather obviously, I don't want to remove the old glass until the new is made.
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*It ain't the size, it's... er... no, it IS ..the size.

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 09/08/2017 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Hi Dave If the glass is retained by a beading (probably on the inside) you should be able to see where the beading ends and the rebate begins. My usual method for creating templates for 'odd-shaped' (stained-)glass panels is to masking-tape some thinnish paper over the hole, and use a wax crayon rubbed on the paper (a la Brass Rubbing) to pick up the outline of the rebate. If you want to get posh, then go over it afterwards with a Sharpie.
Then mark the template 'shows size of rebate' - and your friendly local glass-merchant should be able to subtract the necessary 3 - 4 mm total (left-right and up/down) to give you some wiggle-room.
If the beading's on the inside, then you could pry that out without dislodging the glass (perhaps!), and then you could see the actual size / edge of the rebate. Tack the beading back in place until the new glass is delivered. Depending on how enthusiastic they were fitting the beading - you may or may not be able to re-use it.
Adrian
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There's no beading as such. Just the original moulding on the outside from when there was a wood panel. The inside appears to be putty. But not easy to get and accurate measurement of the full size including rebate without hacking out the putty. But can measure the size of the glass that shows easily. And it's the clear border which will need to be positioned neatly relative to the moulding/beading.
(Had it been 'square' I'd have used beading on the inside too, rather than just putty)
I've not got much confidence in my glass place - the fanlight is just a rectangle, and that was cut 4mm off square. Which meant hacking into the woodwork to make it fit. But they are convenient.
I'm going to give them a template made from ply - so no question if the glass isn't the same.
Obviously it would be better to remove the glass and make sure the ply templet fits - but the glass will take a few days to be made.
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*I didn't drive my husband crazy -- I flew him there -- it was faster

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 15:19:09 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Dumb idea but - make two templates and use one to close the hole for the couple of days it takes to make a new glass one?
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On 09/08/2017 15:42, The Nomad wrote:

I was about the say exactly the same thing! <g>
I've done this for people who want stained-glass panels, but also want to install the door or window 'immediately'..
Watch out for the old putty - it tends to set like rock. If it won't hack out easily then the best thing I've found is a 'round' carbide tile-cutter in a Multitool - but the dust is pretty horrible..
Certainly, if you give the glass shop a template then it reduces the potential for them cocking it up! Adrian
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Adrian Brentnall wrote:

Ordinary non carbide round saw teeth cutter will do and not make ground glass waste.
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On 12/08/2017 09:35, FMurtz wrote:

In the particular job I was thinking of (c1860's Church, small stained-glass vent panels puttied into steel surrounds), the 'saw tooth' multitools lasted about a minute before losing all of the teeth... and it wasn't from hitting the steel surrounds, it was something very abrasive in the putty itself.
With the carbide tool, and a bit of finesse, it was possible to cut a groove in the rock-hard putty without doing too much damage to the lead surrounding the panel. A stripping blade in the groove could then be used to lever out chunks of putty, and the same knife, inserted from inside the building, was used to free the panel.
If it was conventional glazing (no leadwork) then I guess there's a danger of producing ground-glass 'grit' - but you'd need a mask and eye protection anyway, with the putty dust..
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Assuming the used the beading at all, as a friend of mine found when he tried to remove it, it was hard putty. Brian
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Does no one have a guess as to the minimum the glass needs beyond the edge of the outside beading to be secure? If it helps, the size to the edge of the beading - ie the glass that shows - is 912 x 172mm.
I expect to have some wiggle room to get the border lined up with the beading by eye as best as possible. Since nothing this age is ever perfectly square.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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Dave Plowman wrote:

It's been a while since I replaced any puttied glass, I'd guess it was about 8mm
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On 10/08/2017 11:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Well - it's easy enough to guess - for example - 'minimum 1/4 inch / 6mm' - but you've actually got the door-panel there, so you could measure it, rather than you or us guessing <g>
Wiggle-room 'left-to-right' is fine, don't forget that the top-to-bottom wiggle room will need to take account of gravity, as (for simplest installation) the glass will want to sit flat on the bottom of the rebate - so you could argue that you only need half the up/down wiggle room.
Not sure what 'border' it is that you're mentioning?
Unless there's some added complication that we don't know about - wouldn't the simplest solution be to take out the existing glass, and cut two identical plywood templates that are a good fit (with 'wiggle-room' allowance) - temporarily fit one of the templates and get the glass cut to the size of the other? Takes out all the guesswork, doesn't it?
Adrian
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Not really - as I explained earlier. The mouldings on the outside of the door are for a smaller opening than those on the inside of the door. Didn't matter when there were wood panels there - but does with glass. As round the edge you'd see through to the putty on the other side.
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Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 8/10/2017 8:47 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:

If you warm up old hard putty with a hot air gun or a gas torch, it will soften and become much easier to remove. Even if it is very old.
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On 10/08/2017 11:50, newshound wrote:

How about centenarian putty that was not repainted regularly so the linseed oil has buggered off leaving stuff like mortar?
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but, unless you are very lucky, you'll crack the glass.
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from KT24 in Surrey, England

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I consider this to be unlikely. The linseed oil will either have evaporated or oxidised, and heat is not going to make any difference to that.
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On 8/10/2017 1:04 PM, Huge wrote:

I originally thought so too. Except that the linseed oil does *not* evaporate, it hardens by cross-linking.
Try it and you will find that it works. You don't need to get it particularly warm, evidently the linseed oil polymer is a thermoplastic. You don't need to heat it up to decomposition temperatures.
There is of course always a risk of the glass cracking. But in the OP's case, he wanted to *replace* the glass, so cracking would not matter.
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Well, knock me down with a kipper. Hopefully, I shall remember this the next time I have to remove some elderly putty.
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On 8/10/2017 1:35 PM, Huge wrote:

This is when you will find you have the wrong sort of putty!
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I'll certainly give it a try. Removing old putty is always a pain - even when you've broken the glass out.
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*And don't start a sentence with a conjunction *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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