Makita Warranty?

Just spotted this disclaimer on the Lawson site;

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Makita Warning Warranty All power tools supplied by Lawson H.I.S. Ltd carry the CE approval and full manufacturers UK warranty. However, Makita products not manufactured for Europe are also available from some dealers and E-Bay traders. Imported machines without CE approval (for example, from USA) will not carry a manufacturer's warranty, also certain public liability insurances are invalid without the CE mark and tuv approved test certificate. See below for more details. What is the Makita policy on warranties? The manufacturers' guarantee is valid within UK & Europe* only. Makita products manufactured for sale outside of this area will not carry the CE approval mark (see below), and are not covered. For example: Makita machines manufactured for USA are not covered in UK or Europe and will not be repaired under warranty.

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I'm not entirely sure this is legal? Seems like an excuse to charge more in rip off Britain?

Reply to
The Medway Handyman
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There is free movement of goods within the European Union. There is not, however, between UK and the USA, which when you consider some of the American safety standards is a Very Good Thing.

Owain

Reply to
Owain

Perfectly legal, a manufacturer can put almost any term they like in a warranty or not offer one at all. It won't of course affect your position against the retailer (with whom your contract is) but that isn't a lot of good if the retailer is outside the UK. In theory your right against the retailer are the same throughout the EU, reality is, as with many things EU, quite different.

Reply to
Peter Parry

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Since the law doesn't require the manufacturer to provide any warranty at all, it's not significant. Your claim for faulty goods in law is against the retailer. Any manufacturer's warranty is just a bonus which might in some cases be easier to use than the retailer's liability.

Products sold in the UK which come under the CE marking scheme must carry the CE mark. The European manufacturer or importer would be committing an offence if they placed on the market (or held stock intending to place on the market) products in Europe which are not CE marked. However, that still wouldn't absolve the retailer of their liability if the product supplied was faulty.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

On 2007-10-13 21:41:55 +0100, "The Medway Handyman" said:

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Yes it's perfectly legal.

I've often bought power tools in the U.S. for my own use here and this is common across all manufacturers that I've found - which is essentially all of the well known manufacturers - DeWalt, Makita, Bosch, Festool,....

It has nothing to do with prices charged but is, as they say about product approvals and liability.

Whether the notice you found was written by Makita themselves or Lawson, I'm not sure, but whoever wrote it is not aware of CE marking. I suspect it was written by Lawson as a way of holding their (normally reasonable) price position vs Ebay and U.S. imports.

There is no such thing as a "CE Approval". Doesn't exist. There is (for once) no Euroquango in Brussels dishing out certificates. What it is in fact is a declaration made by the manufacturer, or in the case of a manufacturer outside the EU, his local office or possibly agent, that the product meets all of the relevant standards (usually Euronorme or EN standards) for the class of product. For a mains power tools, this will be electrical safety, electrromagnetic emissions and possibly susceptibility and anything that relates to a Directive such as switches on routers and the like. There are various routes to doing this. Larger manufacturers may well test themselves and self certify, many will get tests outside. For example, TUV has large brand value in Germany as an independent test house and so manufacturers often use them in order to apply their logo in advertising materials etc. as well. There are some items such as certain woodworking machinery that have explicit Directives and requirements that an external test house and certification MUST be used. For the majority it's self certification with the backup paperwork of test certificates from a lab. You will also find in the documentation of products from reputable manufacturers a Declaration of Conformity which lists which standards have been tested and the signature of a responsible person or persons and their contact details as well.

In the EU, it is a legal requirement for many classes of goods to carry a CE mark before being "placed on the market" as the wording goes. This has a specific meaning which is basically that of being sold as a transaction within the EU. This is why it's the responsibility of the manufacturer or the importer/distributor/agent to do the necessary to obtain appropriate certificates and to do the declaration stuff. In the past I have had to do this on behalf of some U.S. manufacturers. There are (theoretically) onerous penalties. In the UK, for most transgressions, there is a penalty of £5k and up to 6 months in the pokey. However, for the most part enforcement is by Trading Standards, so the chances of being caught are asymptotic to zero. In most other EU countries, enforcement is by Customs, but it does vary. A theoretically more serious consequence of not having ducks in line is that when an anomaly is reported in one country and verified, the product must immediately be taken off of the market in all EU countries until the matter is resolved. It is that one that reputable manufacturers take seriously although I have never heard of it ever being applied. Possibly the recent lead painted Fisher Price toys affair might have invoked this.

Originally, all of this was about having reasonable product standards and more importantly a level playing field for trade post 1992. Thus, for example, it used to be necessary to get product approvals in pretty much every country separately according tto that country's standards. This was time consuming and expensive and certainly abused by some countries to keep out competition. Sweden, Finland and Germany were notorious in th telecoms and IT sector for it.

So overall, although the CE marking stuff is toothless, it does have some commercial value to manufacturers to at least be able to meet minimum standards. In regard to tools, and many other products, product liability insurance almost always requires adherence to local standards.

The situation in the U.S. is similar in respect to product liability and to product safety, and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) are the big wheel in all of that. In regard to tools, there are certain OSHA (equiv to HSE) requirements but there is more latitude.

There are some common international standards such as IEC 950 and EN

60950 which relate to electrical safety, CISPR 22 and EN 55022 for EMC and so on, so there is a level of commonality.

Products may therefore be substantially the same but differ in detail. Sometimes it's different safety standards, and sometimes market requirements. For example, in the U.S. it would be pretty much impossible to sell a table saw without the ability to have a long arbor and the ability to run a stacked dado cutter set. In Europe, that would only be allowed if the machine can be stopped in under 10 seconds. In the U.S., most routers have a toggle switch, here they don't and so on. Then there is the issue of electrical supply. Most hand power tools in the U.S. are supplied with 110v motors and thick power cords. They may be suitable for 50Hz operation or only for 60Hz and vice versa. here conveniently one can use a site transformer to do the 110v but frequency conversion is not economical for one or two small tools.

So consider the manufacturer's position.

He has the costs of all these certifications in multiple countries. Standards, approvals and market requirements can be mutually exclusive, and product liability becomes so as a result.

The product builds are substantially the same but different in detail. In most power tools, if you compare the spares lists, there are 6-10 parts that are different. Thus to operate warranty and a proper service facility, he would have to stock and supply extra bits which theoretically people could buy or be supplied by mistake making the product dangerous or outside liability insurance.

With all of that it is not at all surprising that manufacturers choose to segment the market according to theatre and to regulatory requirements as well. So quite reasonably, they do not extend warranty to where it cannot be properly supported and could result in a liability exposure. The risk is too high, especially in the U.S. where A for attorney is the largest section in Yellow Pages and there are ambulance chasers outside every Home Depot. I exaggerate, but it is pretty much like that.

So where does that leave me as an individual? Well...... I can legally buy a tool intended for the U.S. market in the U.S. and have it shipped or bring it myself into the EU, provided that it is for my own use. This does not constitute placing it on the market. It would do if I were to sell it to someone else, so theoretically, if I sold my small DeWalt 744 table saw with long arbor to you and you sliced off your hand by putting a dado set on it, I would not be in a strong position legally.

From the warranty position, I am accepting that I forgo that if I buy and import something from the U.S., therefore I will only buy quality products and only ones for which the vast majority of spares are available here. At least if I have spares, I can maintain the product in a working condition. To cite the case of the saw above, there are about 6-8 items that would need to be purchases as spares in the U.S.

- the rest are common to the same part number product here. This is easily done via suppliers such as Grainger who will happily ship to the EU. Small piece parts aren't subject to restriction.

More recently, I have tended to go mainly for cordless tools from the U.S. In most cases, the tool itself is identical to the EU one and the charger is what varies. These can be run from an autotransformer. In the event of one breaking, I'd buy the EU equivalent. However, with the dollar exchange rate at 2:1, it is interesting to import many tools for own use, taking the risk on the warranty. I think that that is a reasonable proposition on the proper branded tools where there is spares availability locally. It wouldn't be worth it on tools with the phoney 3 year, chuck it in the skip warranties. In effect with these it's take a risk on the whole purchase.

As far as Ebay sellers are concerned, what Makita and Lawson are saying is quite correct. It is illegal to import tools and many other products and to resell them in the EU without CE mark. Now one could buy a book of stickers, but that would be unwise as well. If one were located outside Europe, were advertising on Ebay UK and shipping into Europe to individuals, it would be very difficult to be caught unless something Really Bad happened. This has low probability with a quality manufacturer's product.

For someone inside the UK, for example, to do so is taking a risk, and certainly there is not going to be repair under warranty. I think that the manufacturers are quite right in adopting that position.

If we choose to subscribe to an arrangement which promotes common standards for trade in Europe, but then gold plates it above and beyond what is needed, we must expect to pay for that.

Reply to
Andy Hall

Its legal, but sidestepping the point a little to introduce some FUD.

If you buy from a trader, then it is their responsibility to offer your statuary rights. Many may attempt to pass if off to the manufacturer (who may indeed be happy to step in - but since they have no contract with you they are not obliged to). So if a trader sells a non CE marked product and you make a claim on the warranty against them, it is them with a problem since they will not in turn be able to pass it on to the local manufacturer outlet for service and repair.

Reply to
John Rumm

Which do not include any form of warranty.

A warranty claim isn't a problem as no warranty would have existed to claim against. It would certainly leave the retailer with a Sale of Goods Act claim which for the first 6 months after sale would be hard to refute.

Reply to
Peter Parry

Always assuming that the trader is somewhere that is economically reachable.

It reminds me of the line that someone in South Africa told me about the roadside traders who stand at the traffic lights with assortments of goods of various kinds for sale. The warranty lasts until the light goes green.

Reply to
Andy Hall

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