light wiring

[Nigel]

Hi

Whilst doing the good samaritan bit for a pensioner friend he asked if I would change the batten light holders in his flat as he had smashed one. I am no electrician but managed to change three, the wiring being

50 years old and red cloth covered wire and black cloth wire. So two wires no problem, three battens changed.

The batten he had smashed disintegrated to dust after 25 solid years of capstan full strength cigarettes. This had left a couple of bare wires showing. I unscrewed what was left and found not 2 but 5 wires.

3 red, of which 2 were twisted together at the bare wire and 2 separate black wires. Obviously, the attempt I made ended in a blown lighting circuit fuse and I beat a hasty retreat to find the answer to this problem and left him using table lamps for the weekend.

The batten holder has three sets of attachments for live at one end and neutral at the other and unmarked in the middle.

Can someone point out the basics of what I should do with these 5 wires to get his circuit back on. Any help would be really appreciated.

[Ian Stirling]

My guess is that this is the remains of a fan circuit.

[BigWallop]

You really need to look inside the switch which controls this light fitting. If it has one red and one black wire in it then it makes life a bit easier for you. If it has two red wires then you're going to need a meter or electrical tester to find the main supply side of the circuit before you can get things right.

The batten holder should have a few terminals marked as "loop" or are unmarked inside it so this is great for what you're going to do next.

If the switch has one red and one black wire, it is the black wire which becomes the one that makes the light go on and off. The red wire is the supply to the switch.

At the batten holder you will need to connect the black wire from the switch to the L terminal side even though this contradicts conventional wiring schemes. This will leave you with one other black wire as the neutral (N) side of the batten holder. All the red wires would then be connected to the loop through section in the batten holder.

If the switch has two red wires in it, then you will need to find the red wire from the three reds at the batten holder to find the one which supplies the lighting circuit.

With three red wires, two of them will be connected together in the loop section of the terminals, and one is then connected to the L side of the batten holder. The two black wires are then connected together in the N side of the batten holder.

Remember to look inside the switch first and find out if it has one red and one black, or if it has two reds. And also remember to turn the power OFF before you do anything to the wiring, even in between doing any other tests on the circuits.

Also, this site might give some pointers on how things should go together:

site should also be of some help I think:

Continues on to more pages.

[BigWallop]

You really need to look inside the switch which controls this light fitting. If it has one red and one black wire in it then it makes life a bit easier for you. If it has two red wires then you're going to need a meter or electrical tester to find the main supply side of the circuit before you can get things right.

The batten holder should have a few terminals marked as "loop" or are unmarked inside it so this is great for what you're going to do next.

If the switch has one red and one black wire, it is the black wire which becomes the one that makes the light go on and off. The red wire is the supply to the switch.

At the batten holder you will need to connect the black wire from the switch to the L terminal side even though this contradicts convensional wiring schemes. This will leave you with one other black wire as the neutral (N) side of the batten holder. All the red wires would then be connected to the loop through section in the batten holder.

If the switch has two red wires in it, then you will need to find the red wire from the three reds at the batten holder to find the one which supplies the lighting circuit.

With three red wires, two of them will be connected together in the loop section of the terminals, and one is then connected to the L side of the batten holder. The two black wires are then connected together in the N side of the batten holder.

Remember to look inside the switch first and find out if it has one red and one black, or if it has two reds. And also rememebr to turn the power OFF before you do anything to the wiring, even in between doing any other tests on the circuits.

Also, this site might give some pointers on how things should go together:

The batten holder has three sets of attachments for live at one end

[BigWallop]

This site should also be of some help I think:

Continues on to more pages.

[N. Thornton]

If you dont know what youre doing, unconnecting any wires you connected together should enable the lighting circuit to be on again. If you dont know what you connected, separating all of them should allow much of the lighting circuit to work, if not all. But if it has green wires too, dont disconnect those from any other green wire.

This job is one you should not do unless you understand what youre doing - I guess you now know why.

There are also legal issues with what youre doing, I dont know if you realise that. For that reason I'd suggest calling an electrician to fix it. If you decide to do it regardless, you need to at least ensure any bare wires are insulated. There are other requirements as well of course.

Regards, NT

[Nigel]

Thanks for all your input it is really appreciated. I will take a look at the switch and see if this helps explain the wiring and if it does I will follow those excellent instructions. If it is still confusing I will obtain professional help as suggested. I obviously insulated the wires and removed the lighting fuse before leaving him to a weekend of table lamps.

Thanks also for the links they are very useful.

[Martin Angove]

Just as an aside, I would suggest that any installation which has cloth-covered cables, no (apparent) earth and fittings "disintegrat[ing] to dust" needs a thorough check-over and probably a re-wire. How do the sockets look?

Hwyl!

M.

[BigWallop]

Please don't go there, he's having enough trouble with the lights as it is. :-))

[John McLean]

[Dave Plowman]

In my day it was VIR - vulcanised india rubber.

[Lurch]

On Mon, 17 May 2004 00:51:54 +0100, in uk.d-i-y Dave Plowman strung together this:

In my day it was that real old rubber cable that needs ripping out and rewiring otherwise I'm not touching it!

[Dave Plowman]

Absolutely. It's possible to patch lead covered as it's often in perfect condition if you strip it back a bit, so might do as a stopgap. But rubber covered - when it goes it's gone...

[John McLean]

[Huge]

The house we lived in some 19 years ago had it, and the rubber insulation was incredibly friable even then, just moving the wire caused the rubber to crumble and fall off.

[Christian McArdle]

Yes. Any responsible electrician wouldn't touch it, except to remove it. How could they issue a minor works certificate on something made from 50+ year old rubber? Their indemnity insurance provider would go spare. You could probably detect the earth leakage with a 2 quid multimeter from Lidl!

It really does sound like the whole house needs an pretty urgent rewiring. The rubber only really lasts 25 years with any reliability. It may not be long before the whole house burns down. Frequently, the insulation will have perished to the extent that only an air gap exists over sections of cable.

If the house is rented, the owner should replace the wiring, as it isn't really suitable for human habitation. If he owns the house, and can't afford such major work, it may be possible to get the local council to pay for the work (possibly in exchange for a charge on the property which is paid back by his estate, hopefully in many more years time than if he gets torched in his sleep). Also, the fact it has been rewired would mean much of the cost would be recovered by increased sale price. It may be very difficult to sell a house with rubber wiring and would always be flagged by a survey.

He may wish to contact Age Concern for advice, as the help available changes frequently. See:

for a rewire are obviously very variable, and depend on the size of property, local conditions, specification etc. However, for an extremely rough guide, around 3000 quid would leave a small amount change for many jobs of this nature.

Christian.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Thats the secret. Don't touch it. It works FINE, but the MOMENT you touch it the insulation disintegrates and you have to re-wire. In me mums house its still fine, laid in screwed togther earthed metal ducting.