House subsidence problems

[Rachel Holley]

We're half way through buying our first house, and we've hit problems. We're new to this, and don't really know how disasterous/trivial all this is, or what we should do about it. Any ideas?

We've got the mortgage all sorted out and instructed solicitors and things, so we've already committed quite a lot of money. But with the latest sheaf of paperwork came details of a claim the current owners made on their buildings insurance a few years ago. Basically they found a 2mm crack in one external wall, with some other minor cracks in various places.

Their insurance company paid for an 'independent' assessment, which concluded that there was no 'progressive or cyclical movement representative of subsidence', and decided it was just due to something they termed thermal movement, plus minor differential movement between the house and the new extension. On that basis they didn't pay, and the owners had to pay about =A31.5k to repair it all.

Firstly I'm guessing the insurance company report is probably biased, since it's in their interest to conclude it isn't subsidence and therefore isn't covered. There are big trees nearby, the house is on clay soil and the cracks appeared in a very dry summer. On the other hand the insurance company said they would be happy to continue insuring the house at no increased cost, so maybe they really do believe it's not an ongoing problem.

We seem to have several options.

1. Ditch the house, write off the considerable money spent so far and go house hunting again in a big hurry, hoping we can find somewhere we like as much and meet our moving deadline in mid-Aug.
2. Spend =A31000 on a full structural survey, which probably won't go into as much detail as the insurance report anyway. Then depending on the results ditch the house anyway (losing even more money) or carry on with the sale.
3. Trust the insurance company report, on the basis that they're happy to keep insuring it, and buy the house. If the cracks re-appear then they may have to reconsider it as subsidence and cover the repairs. Even if they don't the repairs last time cost only slightly more than the structural survey would.

We're worried about the expense and hassle of getting into battles with insurance companies and owners of the big trees etc, but more importantly the difficulty selling the house on in five or six years time if we have to disclose ongoing subsidence problems. On the other hand, the house is lovely and we're pushed for time.

Are we making a mountain out of a molehill, or are we right to be worried? Any ideas?

Cheers, Rachel

[Jules]

My guess would be that they're just heat-related and nothing to worry about; I've seen quite a few brick houses that developed worse cracks over

20 years ago and aren't showing any signs of falling down yet.

cheers

Jules

[Rednadnerb]

I would agree, 2mm really is minor and I wonder how they spent =A31.5k repairing it. A lot of properties were underpinned in the past that didn't need to be when cracks appeared after a long dry summer, had they been left, the cracks would have closed up again when the ground re-hydrated.

[The Natural Philosopher]

However, its about =A31000 a meter to underpin, so just knock that off te= h=20 offer price.

[R]

Just been through this "hoop" in the rented cottage we occupy. The 1950s kitchen/box room extension to an 1896 cottage was dropping approx 2mm a year on one corner. NW Kent location around farmland.

2 years monitoring the measurements at 3 locations around the property end. Got to know the little man that measured every 6 weeks quite well. Even had his own key for the back gate.

Gap at top of 2nd storey was 15mm in around 5 years prior to actually persuading the landlord to have it fixed reducing down to nothing at the base by a kitchen door frame, Interior gaps were large enough to see upstairs from downstairs and through to next doors box room at night when the lights were on! (We sealed with expanding foam for privacy before the remedial work) Test dig produced silt from a broken drain to 4m depth onto clay under sandy soil. Lab analysis predicted the "leak" had been there for over 20 years and progressively washed out the underlying soils producing the cavity of crap that allowed the subsidence. He paid £1000 excess.for the insurance company to have the work of new drains and gulleys, partial underpin (Pad of concrete at worst corner), exterior and interior decoration. Builders estimate was £6500 the work took a week. Completed last year around June.

Worth doing and if I was buying a property with *any* hint of movement or subsidence I would expect a full survey. Insurance rates go up and after work is performed they are wary of insuring without proper garunatees.

[meow2222]

How old is the house? Its moved 2mm in how many years? Its common for old buildings to have moved that much, most owners just repoint and never claim. 2mm is quite minor.

None of us can predict the future for you, but if the surveyor reckons there's no cyclical movement that indicates its stable. I doubt a lot of surveyors would be willing to risk their career by falsifying data in a minor case, and I cant see a large insurance company doing that over a small claim either.

1.5k for a bit of minor repointing is outrageous, and 2mm wouldnt warrant anything else. You have it on paper that its not subsidence, thats a big plus at sale time. The downside is its a risk factor, and insurance cos dont cover you for pre-existing conditions.

NT

[Rachel Holley]

Late 60s

Single storey flat roofed extension at the back, late 80s and then further in 2003

Some cracks in the bathroom and bedroom, both at the back of the old part of the house. These were attributed to motion of the newer extension as it settled. Uneven paving along the side of the house, and an unstable garden wall and brick archway which they took down.

Yeah, the report says they kept an eye on it for two years and the cracks didn't get any larger, hence their conclusion that it wasn't proper subsidence.

True. Although they wouldn't be able to shirk paying out on the basis that there was nothing wrong and then say it was too much of a liability to reinsure. It's in their interest to gamble on that one. Maybe I'm just too cynical.

Yeah, I suspected as much.

The trees are large, fairly close, and owned by an uncooperative property company, unfortunately.

The subsidence started in 2006, they monitored until 2008 and then did the repairs.

Thanks for all the advice guys. I still don't really know what to do for the best.

[Andrew Mawson]

Late 60s

Single storey flat roofed extension at the back, late 80s and then further in 2003

Some cracks in the bathroom and bedroom, both at the back of the old part of the house. These were attributed to motion of the newer extension as it settled. Uneven paving along the side of the house, and an unstable garden wall and brick archway which they took down.

Yeah, the report says they kept an eye on it for two years and the cracks didn't get any larger, hence their conclusion that it wasn't proper subsidence.

True. Although they wouldn't be able to shirk paying out on the basis that there was nothing wrong and then say it was too much of a liability to reinsure. It's in their interest to gamble on that one. Maybe I'm just too cynical.

Yeah, I suspected as much.

ongoing

trees,

The trees are large, fairly close, and owned by an uncooperative property company, unfortunately.

The subsidence started in 2006, they monitored until 2008 and then did the repairs.

Thanks for all the advice guys. I still don't really know what to do for the best.

Rachel,

What ever the problem is or isn't, when you come to sell in a few years, your potential buyers will go though what you are going through. In the current ecconomic climate where first time buyers like your are a godsend to sellers, I would advise you to walk away and find a problem free place to buy - in a few years the market will recover and you may be left unable to sell due to the previous history albeit regarding farily trivial issues.

AWEM

[Peter Crosland]

Run, don't walk, away from it. At the first mention of subsidence you will find it almost impossible to get insurance for the property.

Peter Crosland

[tony sayer]

Same here and no problems this is what polyfilla is for;)..

What sort of soil is it on rather what's under the foundations etc, and no large trees nearby and do you know of other properties nearby that have had problems?..

It wouldn't take long just to knock on a few doors that way you'd get to find out what the neighbours were like to;).

I'm sure if it was a problem they'd be experiencing the same too unless its built over a mine shaft;!..

[tony sayer]

Can you put some pix on a website somewhere like flikr or similar?..

Sometimes a few Pix are worth a 1000 odd words;)..

[Steve Walker]

Our house had similar, when we tried to move the mortgage their assessor wasn't happy and we had to pay for a structural engineer to produce a report. It basically said that it was typical settlement after building work and not subsidence - his comment to me was to the effect that as the cracks had not been increasing in size over the years, I would have more idea than him of their importance. His suggested work was to epoxy mortar rebar into the mortar joints when the rooms were next decorated. That sort of work with repairing the plasterwork and redecorating could be £1500 possibly.

SteveW

[Andrew Gabriel]

My neighbour did his own, and it didn't look difficult, although I didn't see all of it. In his case, it wasn't subsidence, but building on a first floor which demanded better foundations than the original 1870(?) ones.

[Al]

Insurance companies will go to great lengths to avoid paying. So no surprise in this case. 2mm crack between house and new extension? I wouldn't worry about it.

If the insurance company are stilling insuring it for a sensible premium it's a sound property.

Yep. I'd feel quite confident based on that.

One thing I would do is try to find out if neighbouring properties have had problems. Knock on their doors and ask. If they haven't, go ahead.

Fourth option (after speaking to neighbours) is to contact a local surveyor who may have surveyed nearby properties. It might cost a few hundred quid for him to have a look specifically for problems. Also, talk to local estate agents about properties in the street. Do they sell? Are there survey problems (you may have to pay a few beers in the local bar to extract required info!).

Generally I'd say if you are not 100% happy, walk away. And you're not

100% happy. There you go.

But a quick chat on a Sunday morning to a neighbour washing their car in the drive, a question at the estate agents like "I heard that street was bad for subsidence" and maybe asking for quotes at a few buildings insurance companies might put your mind at rest.

Whatever - Your property will be worth less than you paid for it next year. Any property you 'rush' to buy now will be easy to knock down to a low price.

Me? I'd go with what you've got.

Al.

[js.b1]

What makes people stop is the claim.

Why would someone make a claim for a 2mm crack unless a) it has recently appeared, b) they are new owners?

If the crack has suddenly appeared, it could be a broken drain or lead water main damaged by tree roots. If the crack has been there for 75yrs, slowly opening, it could be soil particles migrating along a drain structure etc.

All houses come with risk, purchase price is not the end - maintenance costs. Normal maintenance about =A3150/month for life?

[Rednadnerb]

Generally I'd say if you are not 100% happy, walk away. And you're not

100% happy. There you go.

I think that's the best advice I've seen. I bought a house with 25mm cracks in the outhouse and a kitchen floor that dropped 75mm in one corner but I was OK because I knew what to do about it. If you are uncomfortable it will always prey on your mind.

[Rachel Holley]

Yeah, it's so difficult, because we like the house so much. But you guys have given us a few ideas for things to try - thanks ever so much!

It seems like one of the main worries is the buildings insurance, and the fact that not being able to get any (or being stuck with the current provider being the only one to risk it) would make the house unsellable. So we're thinking of trying to get some quotes/brushoffs from other insurers, and if they are relatively happy then it's probably nothing to worry about. If none of them will cover it then we have a problem and can walk away before spending money on a survey. We're also going to talk to the surveyors when we ring for quotes, see if they know the company who did the original report and what they think of them, plus whether they think a survey would pick up the kind of problems we're looking for.

Does that sound a good way to go?

[Andy Dingley]

Buy and read a copy of "The Construction of Houses" by two UWE lecturers. (my review is on Amazon). 30 quid, told me far more about cracks than a few grand of surveyors have ever managed to.

[Huge]

What he said. Having just finished the third round of repairs to a house with "seasonal movement" I have no intention of going anywhere near a house with the faintest sign of subsidence ever again.

[tony sayer]

In article , Rachel Holley scribeth thus

As said I'd go and ask the neighbours and see if they've had any problems if this is in a residential area.

And likewise ask a few estate agents other then the one your buying from most will be useful on that as we found out on another matter once..