Feezers in Garage



Just like the ones on flood plains in the UK.
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wrote:

Yes, still foolish, but at least flooding usually only requires drying out & redecorating, not a total rebuild from the ground up.
MBQ
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On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 03:42:49 -0800 (PST), Man at B&Q wrote:

There speaks some one who hasn't seen the results of being flooded. All the plaster off the walls to well above the water line or all the plaster board removed, all electrics out, all but real solid timber out (chipboard floors...). Oh and all the carpets, furniture, white/brown goods, kitchen units and appliances, personal possessions, etc end up in a skip (or three) out the front.
It's a lot more than a simple "drying out & redecorating". The "drying out" takes months. I would not wish flooding on many people but I have very little sympathy for people living on a flood who whine and whinge that "someone ought to do something" when they get flooded.
--
Cheers
Dave.




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On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:04:12 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"

I have very little sympathy for people living on a flood who whine and whinge

I suspect many don't know they have bought a home on a flood plain further there are cases where homes which previously were not subject to flooding now are due to poor management of the surrounding environment. Lewes for example.
It is amazing, to me at least, that planning permission for homes is readily granted in areas which are subject to flooding. The planners, councils and Government are fully responsible for the damage due to flooding in those circumstances in my opinion. The Thames Gateway seems to one such hare brained schemes.
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wrote:

Agreed. There's a place I know of that was built in the last 7 years that has been built on land that in living memory was flooded every other year or so. What's more, it was *excavated* to build an underground carpark for the 'exclusive riverside development' of flats, built above said carpark. This was an area that acted as a 'damper' (pun semi-intended) to help prevent downstream flooding.
The local authority, on being challenged, point out that central government forces them to allow such building by applying a quota for the number of new dwellings built in their area. Their choice is basically flood plain or local parks, and the same rules force high density building (which puts extra strain on parking, road capacity, and local amenities like doctors and dentists). For some reason, developers don't like building on the extensive 'brownfield' sites available.
This is a d-i-y newsgroup, so we are a little off topic. I can't think of a d-i-y angle to what is essentially politics. Encourage activism perhaps?
Sid
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:45:50 +0000 Edward W. Thompson wrote :

I disagree 100%. To say "it's the Council's fault, they let us build it" is an abdication of responsibility. The party that could really influence things, but appears not to, is the insurance industry: if a house is not insurable, it won't be mortgageable. They seem perfectly capable of applying postcode-based assessments of subsidence risks, even if seriously flawed at times.
--
Tony Bryer, 'Software to build on' from Greentram
www.superbeam.co.uk www.superbeam.com www.greentram.com
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:45:50 +0000, Edward W. Thompson wrote:

The raised bank at the bottom of the garden or around the building plot is a bit of a giveaway... Many of the houses flooded in Carlisle the other year are like that. Those flood defences have just had several million quid spent on them raising it a good 4', maybe more.
These days there is little excuse for not knowing that there is a flooding risk, just bung your postcode into the enviroment agency website. OK if you moved before the last 5 years or so it wasn't so easy but maps showing rivers and land heights existed then. Also common sense should tell you that if you are less than 20' above the normal level of almost any water course you are at risk, more for large rivers or in narrow valleys.

Agreed, but as someone else pointed out it's down the insurers at the end of the day. Developers won't build if they can't sell the properties. As for central government quotas, they do exist but round here they have the opposite effect the councils can't give planning permission as they have used all the quota...
--
Cheers
Dave.




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On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:33:01 -0000, "dennis@home"

Perhaps some are as you say but every home I have had in Nort America (5) the basements were fully water proof.
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ITYM they tank the walls and drain the ground below the floor, not quite fully waterproof IMO.
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Ours did that, so I siliconed a sheet of Celotex to it. Sorted.
--
"I have never been able to conceive how any rational being could propose
happiness to himself from the exercise of power over others." - Thomas Jefferson
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On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 14:51:28 +0000, Edward W. Thompson

As a question to a manufacturer 'what is the effect on freezer operation if the ambient temperature falls below 10 deg C'? I have been told that if the ambient temperature falls significantly below 10 deg C the freezer will cut out and will 'defrost'. He couldn't explain why that would happen as I pointed out that the thermostat in the feezer is set at about -10 deg C as far as I know. All sounds like a 'stretch' to me.
As a thoiught, I don't know what freezers use as their 'sensor' but if it is a liquid capillary ( in this day I doubt it) and the capillary is routed external to the insulation, ambient temperature may influence its operation.
It is very strange that the major manufacturers of freezers (Bosch, Zanussi, Liebherr, Whirlpool, Electrolux) all state the lowest rated ambient temperature is 10 deg C. There must be a reason. Is the reason for 'rating' purposes and low ambient temperature does not influence operation of the machine?
I very much doubt that many people have enough space in their homes for a large chest type freezer and it defies logic to heat a space to allow the placement of a machine that has the sole purpose of freezing :-).
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wrote:

(Excuse the full quote, but I couldn't work out a sensible place to snip and keep context)
People have covered combined fridge-freezers with a single compressor already. I'm no refrigeration expert, but a Google session gives me:
Freezers are designed to work in a range of ambient temperatures, and, as you've found, those available in the UK have a particular range. The range your particular model works in will be listed as a 'Climate Class'. The Climate Classes you are likely to come across are:
N (Normal) Class = +16C to +32C ambient room temperature SN (Sub Normal) Class = +10C to +32C ambient room temperature ST (Sub Tropical) Class = +18C to +38C ambient room temperature T (Tropical) Class = +18C to +43C ambient room temperature
(Info from http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=182 )
If the ambient temperature drops below the range the freezer was designed for, then I *think* the problem is with the expansion valve. If its a thermostatic one ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion_valve ), then the valve will close completely, stopping the refrigeration cycle. There's a picture of such a valve (in this case, used in air conditioning systems) here: http://www.hvacmechanic.com/txv.htm
The advice I have seen elsewhere is to heat the room the freezer is in to keep the ambient temperature above its rated minimum, so in the case of a freezer rated as SN, the ambient temperature should be kept above 10 degrees Centigrade.
So, to answer your original question, if the freezer has a thermostatic expansion valve ( and I think all domestic ones do ), then with a SN Climate Class, at an ambient temperature below 10 degrees Centigrade, the expansion valve will be closing, meaning low/ no refrigerant circulation, and little/no cooling. If this isn't sensed, the compressor will run continuously and wear itself out quicker than usual. You may find the heat from the running compressor warms up the valve enough to allow coolant flow, but I think that it might not be a good idea to rely on that.
As for why the valve is set up to close up as the ambient temperature drops, you'd have to look at the physics of vapour-compression cooling as used in domestic freezers, and the efficiency gains in running costs when using thermostatic valves. Not my area of expertise, I'm afraid, but I'd be interested in an explanation from someone who is.
Regards,
Sid
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Beko has a freezer that is set to work in a garage
wrote:

(Excuse the full quote, but I couldn't work out a sensible place to snip and keep context)
People have covered combined fridge-freezers with a single compressor already. I'm no refrigeration expert, but a Google session gives me:
Freezers are designed to work in a range of ambient temperatures, and, as you've found, those available in the UK have a particular range. The range your particular model works in will be listed as a 'Climate Class'. The Climate Classes you are likely to come across are:
N (Normal) Class = +16C to +32C ambient room temperature SN (Sub Normal) Class = +10C to +32C ambient room temperature ST (Sub Tropical) Class = +18C to +38C ambient room temperature T (Tropical) Class = +18C to +43C ambient room temperature
(Info from http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid 2 )
If the ambient temperature drops below the range the freezer was designed for, then I *think* the problem is with the expansion valve. If its a thermostatic one ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion_valve ), then the valve will close completely, stopping the refrigeration cycle. There's a picture of such a valve (in this case, used in air conditioning systems) here: http://www.hvacmechanic.com/txv.htm
The advice I have seen elsewhere is to heat the room the freezer is in to keep the ambient temperature above its rated minimum, so in the case of a freezer rated as SN, the ambient temperature should be kept above 10 degrees Centigrade.
So, to answer your original question, if the freezer has a thermostatic expansion valve ( and I think all domestic ones do ), then with a SN Climate Class, at an ambient temperature below 10 degrees Centigrade, the expansion valve will be closing, meaning low/ no refrigerant circulation, and little/no cooling. If this isn't sensed, the compressor will run continuously and wear itself out quicker than usual. You may find the heat from the running compressor warms up the valve enough to allow coolant flow, but I think that it might not be a good idea to rely on that.
As for why the valve is set up to close up as the ambient temperature drops, you'd have to look at the physics of vapour-compression cooling as used in domestic freezers, and the efficiency gains in running costs when using thermostatic valves. Not my area of expertise, I'm afraid, but I'd be interested in an explanation from someone who is.
Regards,
Sid
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Could you tell me the model number, please. I looked on Beko's website, and the two chest freezers both had SN Climate Class - +10C to +32C ambient room temperature. Searching the website for 'garage' came up wi' nowt.
Of course, I may be wrong in my assumption that people would normally put a chest freezer in a garage, rather than a cupboard style.
Cheers,
Sid
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The one we bought was a BEKO TZDA523S 7.4CF
wrote:

Could you tell me the model number, please. I looked on Beko's website, and the two chest freezers both had SN Climate Class - +10C to +32C ambient room temperature. Searching the website for 'garage' came up wi' nowt.
Of course, I may be wrong in my assumption that people would normally put a chest freezer in a garage, rather than a cupboard style.
Cheers,
Sid
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:53:26 -0000, "Stewart"

As far as I know from my 'research' only Electrolux clearly state, on a few models, they are suitable for placement in a Garage. The 'problem/limitation' appears to be related to the change of refrigerant from Freon to whatever the gas presently used.
I read a somewhat questionable explanation of the problem that attributed the reason todamage to the compressor due to liquid refrigerant carry over. I didn't really understand how that could be related to low ambient temperature as the freezer temperature would always be lower than the ambient, at least in the UK.
I have just purchased a Joihn Lewis brand of small chest freezer The manufacturer, Electrolux, has said 'unofficially' it will likely be OK in a Garage, provided the temperature does not go below 0 deg C for a 'prolonged' period. All other 'major' manufacturers have said 'No' but could not/would not explain why.
If everyone observed the low ambient temperature limitation I would think they would sell very few large chest freezers as a rather large home would be needed although an attached Garage would likely be sufficiently warm.
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So if i understand this thread correctly: fridge/freezers with a single compressor dont work in cold garages, nor do freezers with eco gases replacing the older polluting freon.
I was going to put a freezer in the cellar to save energy.
If I put it in the kitchen then in the winter it will warm the room as it cools the food.
But in the summer it would use loads of electricity cooling the food (and warming the room) So it be more energy efficient to keep it in the cooler cellar, which then wouldnt be below 10 degrees C.
But I dont want to carry it up and down the cellar steps every year.
Are there any models in Britain suitable for use at under 10 degrees C?
[george] -------
unopened or edward or sid quoted google thus:

xxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxx
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wrote:

Don't know if this comment helps but will offer. Here in a somewhat colder climate (Canada) we have heard warnings about fridges with freezer sections not working well when located in say a cold garage. The problem being, as far as I can fathom, that the thermostat being usually located in the 'fridge' section senses that it is cold enough not to operate the compressor. While however the garage or porch or wherever the fridge/freezer is located is not cold enough to keep the freezer section at a sufficiently low temp. Emphasize that this seems to be only the combined fridge/freezers. We have have no problems running two old fridges in an attached but unheated storeroom here in eastern Canada. We presently also run a smaller chest type freezer out there again with no problems. But here, next to the North Atlantic our temperatures are not as extreme as inland North America. With visions of 'hill-billy' fridges on Kentucky front porches/ verandas to store the mix for the 'hooch' in mind; cheers Terry.
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wrote:

SNIP
Think its also due to the move from Freon refrigerent to pentane and other that don't have such a large operating range as Freon This is why people say "I have a 20 year old freezer working fine in the garden", as it clearly pre-dates the banning of Freon.
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These last 2 postings are probably getting nearer the truth.
Decades ago we had an excellent upright fridge/freezer from Currys - Italian made & maybe specially made for Currys - BUT that was in the days before CH & it was in a semi-detached utility room. It was our misfortune to discover that it stopped compressing when the ambient temperature fell below the internal thermostat setting of the fridge.
So my guess is that deeper probing would show 2 linked reasons - (1) nature of the refrigerant & (2) design of the temperature control system.
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