Feeding hot water to floor above hot water tank/boiler

Good name!

Assuming that this is a gravity fed system - that is, the tank in the loft is a large tank fed from the mains, which feeds the cylinder which then supplies the taps - then you will have lower water pressure in your proposed ensuite than you do on the other floors.

Whether the difference in flow rate is big enough to affect useability depends on a number of factors, including pipe sizing, exact tank height above loft floor and the tupe of fittings you intend to use.

I'd be inclined to hook up a garden hose to the hot tap on the first floor, run it up the stairs to the second floor, and measure the flor rate (hint - you need a bucket and a stop-watch). This will give you a worst-case flow rate which you can improve upon.

Reply to
Grunff
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You have a 3 storey house not 2.

No. The cold tank in the loft determines all. If it is above everything else you get water.

No.

The existing cylinder may be too small How many baths/showers do you have? What is to be installed? How old is the boiler?

Reply to
IMM

Flow rate will be fine is 22mm is used for the bath tap.

Reply to
IMM

So you know for a fact that the cylinder outlet isn't half scaled up, and doesn't have 3 elbows in a row?

Reply to
Grunff

All

I have a 2 storey house.

The cold water tank is in the loft and the boiler and hot water storage tank are both on the first floor.

On the second floor there are just 2 bedrooms. One of these is very large and I am considering building an en-suite in it.

Considering that the boiller and hot water tanks are on the floor below is this likely to be a problem with regards to feeding hot water up a floor?

Would a pump be necessary to pump the hot water up a floor?

W/Tank LOFT |___________| =================================

2ND FLOOR - Proposed en-suite =================================

1ST FLOOR - H/Water Tank + Boiler (currently supplies 1st + ground floors only) =================================

Ground Floor =================================

Any advice on this would be gratefully received.

DYJ

Reply to
Damn You Jennifer

What do you want the water for - just a basin or a shower too?

You will get water at this point, but the reason others are asking you questions here is what flow rate of water do you need and what repercussions can you tolerate when water is drawn off at (say) the sink or the bath or the washing machine? I have actual experience of using a shower which was added to my parents home such that when the hot tap was used in the kitchen this robbed the shower of all hot water and it took it three or four (freezing) minutes for the shower waterto return. All because the feed from the cold tank to the hot tank was miserable.

As others have suggested, test out the flow rate via some makeshift hose arrangement.

I'm presuming there is a 22mm diameter pipe supplying the hot tank from the cold tank - I would replace this with a 28mm diameter pipe instead.

If you are doing such "involved" plumbing changes, any other alterations that may be worthwhile at the same time (if the cold tank is galvanized, replace it with plastic)?

HTH

Mungo

P.S. Of more importance than the feed of water, have you considered the drainage arrangements for the upstairs?

Reply to
Mungo Henning

If youre new here DYJ, take no notice of the above poster. The hosepipe idea sounds like a good way to find out.

Regards, NT

Reply to
N. Thornton

Thanks to all who replied.

Just to clarify a few things.

Yes, the system is gravity fed and the c/water is the highest point in the system.

The proposed en-suite will comprise of a toilet and basin and either a shower or bath. Not sure about the latter yet.

Drainage won't be a problem. The soil stack runs just outside the proposed en-suite siting. Of course, it would be cast iron - just to make matters interesting. I'll replace the upper part of it with plastic and join the 2 parts with a suitable connector. The sheds are bound to have something - hopefully!

The tank is plastic, about 15 years old and is 50g in capacity. The base is only about six inches off the loft floor. This may mean that a gravity fed shower in the 2nd floor is out.

There are 2 x 22mm cold water feeds going off it. It looks like one feeds the h/water tank and the other the 1st floor bathroom cold taps.

On the face of it, after taking into account some of the points raised here it should all be fine. I'll hook up a hose from the 1st floor and check if the h/water flow rate would be acceptable on the 2nd floor.

I've been doing DIY for about 10 years and have basic skills in plumbing, electrics etc. I've replaced my kitchen, bathroom and toilet over the years but this looks like it's going to be the most interesting and complicated job yet - i.e. a new installation rather than a straight replacement.

Thanks again for the pointers.

DYJ

Reply to
Damn You Jennifer

It is clear to have little to no experience of these matters.

Reply to
IMM

Best to see what his requirements are first.

Reply to
IMM

Not much to add to the previous responses, but:

If you can take down the top section of the stack to one of the existing joins and remove the old pipe without breaking the collar on the top of the pipe section underneath, then should not need a connector - the new plastic pipe will sit in the collar on the old cast pipe and can be mortared into place just like the original pipe was.

New installs are often simpler than modifications of old ones - you get to control all the variables and there is a good chance all the bits will fit together!

Reply to
John Rumm

snipped-for-privacy@despammed.com (Mungo Henning) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com:

Mungo - will replacing 22mm pipe with 28mm be effrctive when the tank union is 22mm.

I ask because I'm upgrading using a pump in the hot water and a new cylinder, and I could fit 28mm if ti would improve the flow to the cylinder, given that there's a 22mm hole at the cylinder

mike

Reply to
mike ring

Mike, each length of 22mm has a certain resistance. WIth a 22mm tank hole and 22mm pipe, the great majority of the resistance is in the pipework. With 22mm union and 28mm pipe you will get most of the benefit of gonig to 28mm all round, if not quite all. So yes.

Regards, NT

Reply to
N. Thornton

Makes me wonder if raising the tank might have more effect that replacing all the pipework. Anyone tried that approach?

PS I recall one house where it turned out the shower head was about a foot above the hot water cylinder - and no it wasnt a closed cylinder. And nope, there was no pump lol.

Regards, NT

Reply to
N. Thornton

Absolutely. Most header tanks are simply mounted on the joists for convenience, IMM style. In most lofts they can be moved to the apex. Of course there's a fair old weight, so the supporting structure must be adequate. If you have a brick gable convenient, this can make one side of the structure.

However, if you are carefull with the pipework and avoid unnecessary elbows etc, a 22mm fed shower can be fine with only a couple of metres of head. One problem can be with a moveable shower head is that the respective flows will change due to the usual greater flow restriction in the hot.

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

DYJ,

My situation:

2 storey house with loft conversion.

CW tank in loft space. Boiler and HW tank on ground floor (below CW tank FWIW) Main (off-suite!) bathroom (with mixer tap for over-bath shower) on first floor between boiler room and CW tank En-suite bathroom comprising bath, hand basin and WC on first floor approx. 30m (pipe run) from HW tank. Also contains shower on separate H+C supply (both pumped).

Both bathrooms are supplied via 22mm pipe.

Symptoms:

Off-suite bathroom: H+C run at a more than adequate rate and HW is presented satisfactorily rapidly. Over-bath shower is also adequate.

En-suite bathroom: First shower of the morning: start to brush teeth whilst waiting for HW to arrive (complet after shower!), or undress if taking an evening shower - not an issue. Set basin HW tap trickling whilst showering to allow HW to arrive for shaving by the time shower is completed. Irritating but not an issue. Solved by allowing the HW to this bath and basin to constantly circulate in a mini-ring main. Others here can explain how its done - similar I believe to the system that ensures that HW is imediately present in hotel rooms. Effective but expensive because the HW cools and encourages excessive boiler use. Bath - set HW running per normal but start CW running slightly later than usual. Not an issue.

The water in both bathrooms runs at a perfectly adequate speed - i.e. you don't need to open the taps fully. BTW the en-suite shower is powerful enough to hurt!

HTH

Richard

Damn You Jennifer wrote:

Reply to
Richard Savage

snipped-for-privacy@meeow.co.uk (N. Thornton) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@posting.google.com:

Thanks, Norman, that was bothering me; it also bears on how much of my CH pipework I upgrade to 22mm

mike

Reply to
mike ring

It will have to be a 3/4" hose. It will work from what you say.

The shower in reletaion to the hot water cylinder makes no difference, except in draw-off lag. It is the cold water tank that makes the difference.

Reply to
IMM

..or an elephants trunk stuck in the pipe! All pipes must be clear and fitted properly. That does not have to be said.

Reply to
IMM

Hmmm... I'm presuming you mean either the inlet or the outlet of the hot tank being 22mm?

When I re-sited my hot water tank (the saga described here some years ago) I also managed to unscrew the inlet and outlet fittings and wandered along to my local plumbers merchant and bought replacements which were 28mm.

So in my case the old setup was a 22mm feed down to the hot tank, and a 22mm draw off which some 5 feet later split at a T junction to two 22mm runs for the back and the front of the house respectively. In the new setup, the run from the cold tank (if Matthew Marks were watching here he'd be correcting me to use the word "cistern" instead! :-) is 28mm all the way into the hot tank, and 28mm outlet down the 5 feet run which then reduces to the old setup of 22mm to the front and back respectively.

The more experienced or qualified in plumbing will correct me here, but I'm guessing at the 22mm inlet being the limiting factor in your setup so replacing the 22mm downpipe with 28mm might not make much difference. You need to go the whole hog, and please don't curse my name if you do decide to go down this route and warp your hot tank in the process of removing well- stuck fittings - people here will warn you to start unscrewing the fittings whilst the tank is still full of water (but only until you "slacken" them, of course).

Not that you would notice it now, but in our household the major difference is that draw-off of hot water doesn't seem to perturb other users (such as at the gravity shower) at all. Where I feel the upgrade is worth it is for a future addition where I plan to install a pumped shower and thus I can replace the 22mm-28mm-22mm T piece (I am quoting the vertical stalk of the T as the middle number here - no complaints to the contrary please ;-) with a 22-28-28 then a few inches later have a 28-22-22 to connect to the existing plumbing and have a 22mm draw off for the new pump.

The only swine is that if you screw up a 28mm joint you risk one helluva flood...

Your call on your own situation of course, but I kinda think that the upgrade from 22mm to 28mm was one of these behind-the-scenes changes that has been worthwhile. A sort of "contingency" which will shortly pay off for me.

Regards

Mungo

Reply to
Mungo Henning

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