This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck.
Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?
I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.
You're clearly not dealing with a sensible person. As such he's to be avoided as much as possible, and is certainly not someone you really want to have any business dealings with.
Regardless of any legal liability, if anything goes does wrong who do you think is the first person he's going to blame ? Himself or you ?
What sort of profit do you hope to make if you do as he asked ?
Assuming you get enough business dealing with sensible people as it is, is it really worth the extra grief ?
Of course this may leave the problem as to how to resolve the situation. Maybe the sudden unavailability of an essential component due to Covid, may fit the bill.
michael adams
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Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that explains the problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they understand they are accepting any risks resulting.
Yes that was suggested but some are of the view that it may have no legal weight especially if you are operating as a business. There is also a moral duty.
do a PAT Test. If it passes, that's fine - if it fails, that's fine, too.
But the customer clearly doesn't believe John; who has already explained how dangerous he believes it is. He simply thinks John is trying to charge him for extra work. Simply getting him to sign a piece of paper isn't going to convince him either that John is right or of the danger. If it did, having read it, he'd pay for the extra work to be done. And neither is it going to make the deck any more safe.
In the event of the customer's house burning or one of his loved ones being electrocuted, all John's signed piece of paper will indicate is that he was the last person to work on that deck. And that he succeeded in getting some idiot to sign a piece of paper supposedly absolving him, John, of all responsibility for what he John suspected might well happen. As explained on the piece of paper,
It's hardly good publicity for his business either, is it ?
michael adams
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I'd quote for a job that included rectifying the danger. Used goods are not required to be as safe as new ones, but that's not a free pass. I'd bear in mind that courts might theoretically exist to determine what's right, but practically their operation does not match that.
FWIW I'm not sure how a valve would be dangerous. If it were glowing red & touching something flammable it would normally still be the fault of some other part. An unreinforced CRT can be a danger, but there aren't many sets that have those without a protective cover - they do exist though, as historic scopes & IIUC China was knocking such TVs out in the 90s, little battery jobs.
NT
It's an alternating danger then is it? :-)
As long as it doesn't get rectifried.
If the customer is resistant how can you direct them?
And are dodgy capacitors any more dangerous than falling under a bus on the way ohm?
Owain
Walk away. It isn't worth the hassle. "My insurance would be invalid if I did an incomplete repair, so I'm sorry, but I can't touch it."
This is a common situation with aerial and dish work. They want it 'patching up'. You can't do it. It could fall and kill somebody.
This is also a nightmare for the vehicle repairers.
Bill
Its a judgement call. How confident are you that its actually unsafe right now? Do you expect other professionals would be of the same opinion?
How about a case where you take your car to have the tracking adjusted, and the garage do the requested work, but also give you a notification that the brake pads are close to the wear limit, and are unlikely to last until the next service and, after another couple of k miles, would not pass a MoT either?
In some cases its more clear cut, say a customer wanted a circuit extended, and an electrician highlighted that they could only do the work legally if they also upgraded the substandard main equipotential bonding while doing the work. The customer may be of the same opinion that this is just a money making ruse, but the electrician can at least point at the rules, and also be fairly confident that should the customer go elsewhere they will get a similar response. Making it less likely the customer will then go round bad mouthing the first chap as a rip off merchant.
In general I am not a fan of playing nanny however if it really looks like the customer is a danger to himself and a potential PITA, then by all means decline the work. If its less clear cut, then make it clear you believe there may be risks, and make sure there is an audit trail that shows you made it clear!
+1
+1
And be prepared to sign your house, savings, investments, etc over to the lawyers arguing about it.
This is in the "professional" scenario, ie the repairer is set up to do the work, advertises their services, makes a significant (FSVO "significant") part of their income from the repairs, etc.
A "volunteer" say in Repair Cafe, you invoke "best endeavours" and insist that all clients sign a disclaimer that also includes a refuse to repair, no guarantee, etc, clauses.
There are plenty of examples of old valve gear which wouldn't pass modern safety checks even when perfect.
I'd just add that it seems to me further complicated by the statutory bar on terms which try to exclude or limit a trader's liability in the event of a consumer's death/injury from something the trader did or omitted to do.
Return it with a fuse removed, and refer to that in the waiver, so by re-inserting it they accept liability?
Well, why would they be bringing the amp if its the turntable? If they want it fixed, then I think you should advise you would make it all safe or not touch it with the barge pole, after all it might be you who touches the anode! Brian
No don't lie, I have to say when I were young and sighted, many people were blissfully unaware of the danger that was lurking, and were only too glad to pay to get the whole thing fixed up. I'd not say all are idiots, by any means, just not appreciative of the dangers, that is all.
Brian
I assumed it was an old record player. All in one unit.
Never ever seen a turntable that had valves. ;-)
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