On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 21:03:20 +0000 someone who may be Steven Briggs wrote this:-
Assuming that wind farms should be located in the same place as nuclear power plants.
It would look excellent.
All you are saying is that wind power is diffuse, something I already know.
tells us what we need to know about the authors. The Sustainable Development Commission's report, which is peer-reviewed, examined the subject in detail and came to rather different conclusions.
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:14:40 GMT someone who may be Roger wrote this:-
On the contrary, it is addressing the issue head on. I do understand why the anti-wind lobby don't like that.
What that means is that for one hour in every five years 90% of the land area of the UK would not have winds suitable for generating electricity from. That leaves the other 10% of the land area and the sea.
The report is addressing anti-wind claims that the whole of the UK is frequently becalmed and thus no electricity could be generated from the wind. In other words wind has a capacity credit ('firm power') of zero. The report demonstrates that this claim is false.
Where wind farms should be situated is another discussion. The industry is aware of the best sites, wind power is not some back of an envelope thing.
Until wind exceeds around 20% of total generation the cost of additional backup for wind is small. Above that and the costs do increase. That is why nobody is suggesting generating say 50% of electricity from the wind, other than anti-wind lobbyists trying to put up a straw man.
There are a whole range of other sustainable ways of generating electricity as well, a not exhaustive list including tidal stream, wave, biomass and hydro. Together with the cheapest of them all, energy conservation, the UK can avoid the nuclear mess while having a reliable electricity system. Indeed by having a large number of small generators the electricity system is more stable than with a small number of large generators. An indication of this is the way the first commercial wind farm at Delabole dramatically reduced the operation of automatic tap-changers at the local substation.
The message from David Hansen contains these words:
So you say but you appear to be the chief spin doctor for the pro wind lobby.
Ah, I get it at last. All the wind generators will be shunted round the country to stay in the 10% that still has a bit of wind and when that fails for the odd hour they will all be floated out to sea where it has been decreed that the wind will always strong enough.
But not apparently addressing the practical problems flowing from a large stationary high such as we have recently been experiencing. Spin, not science. They need to cater for the worst case scenario, not the average.
Best sites for wind on an individual basis, best sites to minimise disruption or best sites for distribution? To some extent at least mutually exclusive.
So the real contribution from wind is an expensive exercise in pointlessness. Either there is so little capacity from wind generation that the other forms of generation don't actually need supplementing with wind power or wind power needs other plant standing idle most of the time to cover for the days when wind is largely absent.
You probably won't recall it but my first contribution to this thread was to suggest tidal power was a much better idea than wind power.
Those (like two I can see (when the early morning fog is cleared) in the distance) that are situated close to the coast can generate successfully from the sea breezes that come about with the current differences between sea temperature and land temperature. The old 'conventional' windmills were often so located, and co-exist with their modern turbine replacements.
All the points you raise have all been addressed already.
NT
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:56:10 -0000 someone who may be "Andy" wrote this:-
What 'one size fits all solution' would that be? I don't recall anyone advocating that 100% of electricity is produced by wind power, in this thread or elsewhere.
I find it interesting (and enlightening) that this is the only point in my posting that you choose to address. Have you got the courage to address the other challenges?
I take your reply above to mean that you accept the statistic of a minimum of 50% outage for wind generation in the SE for almost a full week? I am sure that stat can be distorted some more to paint an even more bleak picture for all alternative generation in the region if I want. Get my point? Oh, and that 'one size fits all solution' would be the one that you seem to have been promoting.
The tone of this thread has been about the pros and cons of wind power to provide somewhere around 20% of our leccy. There seem to have been some evangelists and detractors in equal measure. I was merely a) trying to show that there are some shades of grey between the black and white views that have been put forward and b) a rather toungue in cheek attempt to show that the stats presented both for and against wind energy so far have been rather stronger in enthusiasm/cynicism than informed opinion.
Regards.
On Wed, 23 Nov 2005 23:16:43 -0000 someone who may be "Andy" wrote this:-
I'm free to address whatever I like.
Already done so in numerous postings in this thread and there is little point in repeating it too frequently, but I'll add a little below.
I'm accept that you saw one wind turbine not turning for almost a full week. However, that tells us very little about wind generation across the UK, offshore as well as on land.
No, I have been answering points about wind power. That does not mean that I want 100% of electricity in the UK to be generated from the wind. If I wanted to say that then I would do so.
That is precisely my point. The data I posted was factually correct but the conclusion I presented was at least questionable. The same can be said for most of the statistics that have been presented in this thread.
I didn't suggest that you had proposed 100% wind generation - the figure you quote is around 20%. I was simply observing that wind energy is just one of the options that is available. I just have problems with putting all my eggs in one basket.
Andy.
There are proposals for some large EON installations on and around Thorne Moors not too far away from me. The local paper is full of letters about them. The antis are screaming about noise, bird strike, subsonic noise, aeroplanes crashing into them etc etc. The pros keep demolishing the arguments but the duty cycle reliabilty is about the only really serious argument. I think I prefer the idea of not burning "some of the coal" at Drax, Eggborough, Ferry Bridge or any of the other local stations when the wind is blowing sufficiently to simply burning it all the time. If I can come across a secondhand or cheap new wind genny and associated gear I've a spot on top of my barn just dying to give it a home. (Its one of my E-bay favourite searches)
John,
Generally I share your sentiments. I guess when I read the earlier contributions to this thread I felt that some of the statistics that were presented seemed initially plausable, but when examined a little closer were a little 'ingenious'. I tried to hint at this by drawing a very silly conclusion from an invalid sample size - the upshot has been excuses for circumstances leading to no wind generation but no challenge to the basic flawed conclusions...
It seems that the points I posted earlier have been perceived as 'anti' wind energy which I find quite odd. As it happens I am admiring the countries newest wind turbine from my desk as I write this and hope that the proposed companions for it will be built. However I don't see that this should preclude any other form of alternative energy generation - there is strength in diversity.
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 00:44:13 -0000 someone who may be "Andy" wrote this:-
Incorrect. The challenge to the "basic flawed conclusions" is the Oxford report referred to earlier.
SNIP
Exactly so - if I had a stream from a decently high hill nearby I would definitely have a small water turbine "as well". If the voltaic panel ever becomes cheap enough that would also be factored into the scheme of things.
John
Don't you just find the elegance of a man made structure such as a wind generator a testament to human ingenuity?
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