Corgi registered or not..?

[Jinge]

My question is from a customer's point of view, rather than an installer. I have recently had fitted a new kitchen (including Gas oven and hob) and a new central heating system including radiators. The property is being renovated prior to letting.

The problem is that I phoned Corgi yesterday to see if the installer (who has just set up a company with a colleague who both used to work for a reputable kitchen fitter) was Corgi registered. However, they had no record of him. I remember him showing me a card a few weeks ago prior to the work. It was white, with a number and his photo with Corgi on it and some info on the back. Being non-the wiser, I assumed this was his Corgi membership card meaning he was registered.

I am now very worried that he is not registered, but cannot understand why he would have done the work (he seemed to know what he was doing) and why he showed me that card. He is a trustworthy chap and lives in the same street as I do.

I also do not understand that he showed me the card, but Corgi did not recognise his details. I asked if they registered students, but apparently they do not.

The thing that made me suspicious in the first place was that he said he was unable to certify the work for letting purpose, as his Corgi registration type didnt allow him to do this. He said he would be able to certify domestic properties, but would need to complete another module and send a further fee to Corgi to enable him to certify for Landlords. I find this unbelievable as Corgi have clearly stated to me on the phone that if the installer if Corgi registered, then he could certify either property (whether domestic or for letting).

Both my wife and I have spent hours on the phone and on the internet (including this forum which is very useful). We have been left a bit confused, as the advice we have been given by most people is that the installer needs to be Corgi registered to touch gas. However, people form the forums have said he doesn't necessarily need to be Corgi registered, just competent in the eyes of the law.

I would greatly appreciate your advice on this rather stressful matter.

He now tells me he has a certificate from the "Guild of Gas Fitters". I've never heard of that, nor is there anything on the web sbout it. Is he telling porkies...?!

Many thanks,

[BigWallop]

To carry out any gas work for profit i.e. domestic or commercial installations for payment, the installer must be a registered CORGI installer.

If CORGI don't have his details, then he ain't CORGI registered.

The gumpf about having to do extra modules is bull, as the requirements for CORGI registration are in his competence during test installations, which CORGI choose at random, on any the work he has carried out and registered with them as being complete.

If he has gone through this process then he'll know how it works, so ask him to explain how one would go about obtaining the CORGI registered mark for certification. If he can't tell you that it is through voluntary issue of work he has carried out and which has been independently inspected by CORGI, then he's talking codswallop.

That's why they don't have his details, he isn't registered, and has produced a false document of registration. FRAUD !!! I think it's called.

[geoff]

In message , BigWallop writes

And I've never heard of the "Guild of Gas fitters"

[Chris Oates]

I have...

[geoff]

In message , Chris Oates writes

[John Rumm]

[BigWallop]

Ha Ha Ha !!! Took the words right out my mouth. :-)) The background .gif is wonderful. LOL

[BigWallop]

Does the SWATGAS name stand for "She Who Attaches The Gas" which is an abbreviation of SWMBOTATGAS or "She Who Must Be Obeyed That Attaches The Gas" ? :-))

(sorry ! getting tired and weary sitting here doing nothing)

[Chris Oates]

anyone know how much Corgi registration is ??

[BigWallop]

This, I think, explains it Chris :

[Ian Clowes]

Hi

There are examples of the new colour Corgi cards on the corgi-gas website. I think the old ones were B+W, and perhaps are still in circulation.

AIUI, there different CORGI modules so someone may be able to undertake some forms of work but not others. I couldn't find a list of categories on the Corgi site. I wasn't aware that being able to fit an appliance but not certify it for landlord regulations purposes was a division they had, so he may be saying that to mislead you.

From a pragmatic point of view you need a landlord's certificate, and probably expected him to give you one. Whether or not this was his understanding is probably a moot point, since based on what you've said he has done so for he's probably unable to issue one (legally).

Depending on his general character he may or may not be willing to try and resolve this to your satisfaction. By character I mean propensity for violence, fear of prosecution by Corgi, etc. He may have thought he could make a few quid from you without causing you or he any inconvenience, and might just want to keep as close to that as he can.

Assuming he's of suitable charachter, explain to him that you expect a certificate, and will leave it with him to get one sorted out for you by (say) the end of the week. You might want to ensure that the inspection explicitly includes a review of all installations and a gas soundness test. I'm not sure if a standard check would cover all this.

If that all goes well then you're sorted out on a personal level.

There is then the broader question of what you do about his Corgi status. It sounds like you don't want to cause this fellow trouble, and I might personally be inclined not to pursue it if the testing all goes well.

The Corgi stuff is expensive. I know people who were ticketed by their employer but haven't kept up the ticket after leaving that employer. I know others who paid personally (because they were self-employed) but have let it lapse due to decreasing return on the investment. Both these sets of people are (probably) competent to do the work, although not legally able to. You mentioned that your chap was previously employed by a kitchen fitting company, so he may fall into this class.

There's no good excuse for what he's doing, but maybe one of the bad ones will convince you its not worth pursuing.

If you're doing a house up for letting then I'm sure you've got lots on your plate. For personal sanity reasons I'd try to put this whole thing behind me as quickly as possible. You can always pick up the registration issue in a few months if you do nothing now and its still on your mind then. I know some here will disagree with that sentiment/proposal.

HTH IanC

[Andrew]

Sorry, but your gumpf is equally bull. If you look at the Corgi website you'll find:

"In order to become CORGI-registered, you must first pass your ACS assessments. To do so, unless you have previously worked in the gas industry (ie you are renewing your ACS after a break) you will need to attend a course at your local college. ACS is the very minimum requirement for CORGI registration. Once you have this, the work that you can carry out is determined by which specific ACS course you have passed assessments in. CORGI maintains a list of which assessments each CORGI-registered installer holds and when they expire"

So, the work a corgi registered fitter is allowed to do depends upon his qualifications. The plumber I had to fit a new boiler would not move the cooker connection at the same time as he was not registered to do so.

Andrew

[Owain]

"Ian Clowes" wrote | From a pragmatic point of view you need a landlord's certificate, and | probably expected him to give you one. ... | Assuming he's of suitable charachter, explain to him that you expect a | certificate, and will leave it with him to get one sorted out for you | by (say) the end of the week. You might want to ensure that the | inspection explicitly includes a review of all installations and a gas | soundness test. I'm not sure if a standard check would cover all | this.

The corgi CP12 form includes a numbered list of all appliances, including location, type, made, model, flue type, operating pressure or heat uinput, check for ventilation, flue, termination etc. There is also a Gass Installation: soundness test which must be ticked pass or fail.

| If that all goes well then you're sorted out on a personal level.

But this is a rented property. If an accident were to occur the OP could find himself facing a charge of manslaughter.

The landlord certificate has the fitter's Corgi number on it; it would be simple to check that number back with Corgi. It may be that they have a name mis-spelled or under a different trading name, but a check with the number should be conclusive.

Owain

[Ian Clowes]

Hi

I think you're misunderstanding my proposal.

What I'm suggesting is that the fellow who's done the work is probably not able to issue a certificate, and the OP shouldn't accept one from him.

However, if the original fitter knows somone who can (and will) come in, check over all the work and issue the relevant paperwork then the OP will be sorted out. The suggestion is based on the hint that the fitter originally worked at a business which was performing this type of work legally, and that he knows someone there who will get things sorted out in a non-dodgy manner.

It would also be wise for the OP to be sure the new tradesman does actualy check everything over, rather than just pop in with the relevant piece of paper to help is mate out.

Are you suggesting that is type of regularisation is not possible?

Cheers IanC

[Ed Sirett]

See the FAQ. It could well be that he was registered as an 'operative' under the last firm he worked for. But now he is self-employed / in partnership he is operating under a different name. If the card he showed you was valid for this year till March 04 and had his photo and name on it I would leave the matter rest. He will register in his new business next year.

[Jinge]

Dear All

Many thanks for all your advice and to those who emailed me directly.

Update so far.....

The fitter has arranged a corgi registered guy (his mate!) to do the certificate in a few days. It is obvious that my original fitter is not corgi registered but will be using this job as part of his assessment, under the guise of being supervised the entire time (which is untrue as we saw him carry out the work on his own, and don't know his mate from Adam), and getting paid for the whole thing.

The fitter has even told me that his corgi mate has been on holiday abroad the entire time he was doing the job!!

We still owe this guy a lot of money for work he has still not completed and in the last few days various concerns have come to light over his competence in plumbing installations - we found out that he had not even installed the washing machine and dishwasher properly! The engineer for the appliance company said he should not really have put it right as it would have invalidated the guarantee, but he did it out of goodwill! We also have concerns over taps, pipes and lord knows what else is awaiting us after further use of the facilities. Even though we owe him £1000s he has still dragged the job out, which has caused us to lose a tenant on the property already and has caused us so much stress but he almost doesn't seem bothered. To find out he has been lying to us all along and breaking the law to boot is just getting too much....

[Owain]

"Jinge" wrote [snip tales of woe] | Even though we owe him £1000s he has still dragged the job out, | which has caused us to lose a tenant on the property already

That's a quantifiable financial loss. I think you need to Call Your Solicitor.

Owain

[Andy Hall]

I've had a similar situation, although with a different type of project, where the supplier took longer than stated, didn't complete certain aspects properly and did some property damage through incompetence and lack of supervision into the bargain.

I had withheld the remaining payment of just under £10k. The supplier had agreed to only a £1500 deduction to cover the property repair, so we were a long way apart.

I gave them several opportunities to fix the other outstanding issues and they failed miserably, still persisting in holding out for complete payment. After about a month, and several letters, they brought in their solicitor who began threatening legal action. They hadn't prepared their position at all well and I sent them photographs, copies of a diary that I had kept etc. The offer was upped to £2500 on their side and at that point I contacted my solicitor.

I bought an hour of his time to discuss how to handle this at a cost of just over £100, which in the context of what was at stake, was not a lot. Nevertheless, the costs can quickly mount if he were expected to do much.

I had included in my counter claim amounts for time lost supervising the supplier's subcontractors and other inconveniences. His advice was that unless I was self employed or in a profession that bills explicitly for time then a court would be unlikely to take that time and its cost into account.

His additional advice, if I was prepared to settle at the figure, was to offer to settle at a figure just under £5000 (e.g. £4995), and to pay the difference to reduce the outstanding balance to this figure. The strategy behind this is that this is the break point where a claim would be heard in the Small Claims Division rather than in full court. Any solicitor will know this and it's virtually a coded message that one understands the game.

I was advised that in general, the small claims court will err towards the customer in this type of case where a supplier has been incompetent, done poor work etc. Moreover, the case will be heard in the locality of the defendant, and in this case, the supplier was half way across the country. This would have the potential of incurring a lot of professional cost for them, as well as management time.

After three further exchanges of letter where I stood firm and called their bluff, the supplier's solicitor had clearly been told to settle. We did so, at £4000 plus £1500 worth of other goods from the supplier.

Throughout this exercise, I kept records of what was happening and every letter was sent by special delivery so make sure that there was a record of signature and receipt.

I also made sure that each letter repeated the points of the previous ones in full (word processors are great for this) and got up to seven pages at the end, with plenty of cross references. Of course, the supplier's solicitor would have to read all of this stuff to be able to follow the details. I estimate that that would have cost them quite a bit in legal fees.

A dispute with an individual would not need to have this amount of standoff, but nevertheless the principle of withholding payment and making the supplier take legal action is a sound one.

.andy

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[Ian Clowes]

Hi Andy

Just to clarify the aim here...

They still want money. Are you saying that since its under £5000 it will only be heard in the SCD if they sue for it? I thought their solicitor could ask for it to be heard in the full court?

IanC

[Andy Hall]

IANAL, but as it was explained to me by someone who is, this is a question of normal practice and costs.

Generally, small claims procedure is used for amounts under £5k, fast track for £5k to £15k and multi-track above that. Details are on the Court Service web site.

point is, that going for the fast track could be done, but would have to be justified (not likely here) and would imply more costs.

Also, we should keep in mind the storyline from the OP. There seems to be fairly clear indication that the installer has broken the law, and remember that this is a criminal offence.

I had occasion to check an installer's registration with CORGI on Friday. This particular person is employed and there is a CORGI registration for his firm. He is registered under the firm's registration and certified to do specific work. You can ask CORGI whether an individual is certified to do X but they won't give a list of a person's qualifications. Moreover, in the case of this type of registration, the individual can only do work for the firm and invoiced by the firm. He is not allowed to do work on the side - that apparently requires an individual registration. Either way, they can check by firm or by individual, and it does sound as though the OP's installer falls outside of either category.

In the light of that, I wonder whether he would really want to involve himself in the court system, albeit a civil action? I suppose that the OP couldn't really hold that up as a reason not to pay since it is tantamount to blackmail.

It seems that the scenario could result in the installer trying to pursue "alternative means" of debt collection. If he did nothing, which is probably unlikely it leaves the matter rather open ended.

Faced with this situation I think that I would do the following:

- I wouldn't accept the offer of "a mate" doing an inspection and check.

- Get an independent and preferably expensive organisation like BG to come and do an inspection and issue a certificate.

- Get an Institute of Plumbing registered plumber to check the plumbing work and provide a report. Not that I set huge store by this organisation but it's as good as it gets.

- Have the two contractors above carry out any remedial work required.

- Send payment to the original fitter less any and all costs from above, with an accompanying letter saying that this is in full and final settlement.

- Report the guy to CORGI. Not only does he appear to have done a poor job, but he also appears to have committed a criminal offence and to have borne false witness to try and cover that up.

Faced with that, I don't think that the guy would be very likely to pursue a claim.

I suppose that one could go as far as to issue a claim for loss of rent for having lost a potential tenant - whether that would stand up, I don't know.

.andy

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