Is that a fundamemtalist principle for you - would you not want a registration scheme for doctors or surgeons either? What about driving tests? Or do you draw some arbitrary line (like the rest of us) in which case it's presumably a matter of what you think are the costs v. the benefits of such schemes.
What sort of figures are you looking for?
Example of CORGI FUD please?
Plenty of examples of them saying "you're not allowed to do your own gas work". Maybe not from official formal announcements, but plenty of their staff will have stated that. Pertinent to this NG of course...
I think the professional registration/regulation aspects of corgi/their replacement are probably a sensible idea. What is wrong is where they overstep their boundaries, which is something they do on a depressingly regular basis.
cheers, clive
Alde bubble tester and manometer tube - just as described in calor gas leaflet.
And you leak-tested it, how?
And a can of spray "washing up" liquid.
On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:03:54 GMT someone who may be John Stumbles wrote this:-
Why would you think that I had any other approach? Have I ever stated a "fundamentalist" approach? Are you asserting that I am uniquely not like "the rest of us", whoever they are?
The ones I have mentioned before. Death and injury figures going back to say a decade before the start of the CORGI con.
They constantly put out two lies. Firstly that only people who pay them money can do gas work. Secondly that work by someone who has not paid them money is dangerous and will cause the building to be flattened in short order.
That sounds like anti-CORGI FUD to me. If CORGI say "you're not allowed to do your own gas work" (period) in an official pronouncement then fair enough, that's strictly incorrect and they should qualify that. If you looked at their technical briefings they bend over backwards to dot the 'i's and cross the 't's. However if it's a CORGI employee saying that in their own capacity then calling that CORGI FUD is, well, FUD itself.
So where are they overstepping their boundaries? The only instance I can think of is spamming their member's customers with a glossy PR magazine using contact information gleaned from installers' work notifications.
I didn't go back over all your previous posts to see if you had an anarchist or libertarian objection to all regulation. Since you don't you presumably consider that some activities (maybe medicine, air piloting, car driving) should be regulated so one has to prove competence to do them, but other activities not regulated. I take it you include gas fitting in the 'not' catagory then?
So since CORGI started in 1970 you're looking for figures from circa
1960. Maybe it's not actually a huge consipracy: maybe there just aren't comparable figures available from that far back? After all in those days we had town gas (largely Carbon Monoxide), 'Ascot' type water heaters, practically no central heating ... it would be hard to relate what figures there are for that time to stats for nowadays.Where do you get this? It's not on their website. The closest I can find to your allegation is their page " Do Not DIY With Gas"
Their statement "unless you are a trained professional, working with gas appliances is not [a DIY task you can safely perform at home]" is not correct. However, given the number of posts in this group of the nature "I know f*ck all about gas safety but I lashed up this or that gas appliance and it's working, therefore there's nothing to this CORGI lark" I think it's understandable that they don't want to give the reckless any (more) encouragement. The web page is clearly aimed at yer average Joe Public for whom DIY might just extend to fitting an outside tap from a kit with a hose and pierce-pipe connector, so it seems an appropriate level they're writing at.
I've heard it said on CORGI stands at housing shows (professional, not ideal-home types) by CORGI people. This is the PR end, the non-technical stuff aimed at people other than yourself.
See above.
I'm slightly surprised that you're defending them so hard on this one. They've definitely tried quite hard to dissade DIY, and have gone a bit too far.
Mostly it passes me by, since I'm not on mains gas. But somebody out there has done a good job in persuading eg my hob suppliers that they're not allowed to sell spare parts to the general public (*), and that somebody is CORGI.
Of course a large part of it could be the trade having no interest in telling the truth - there's no money in a registered gas bod like you saying it's actually legal to DIY. But the magic word they all use is "CORGI".
(* side rant. Spark generator was bust so I wanted a new one. "I need one of these - here's the part number it says on the side, it's in my hand now." "Sorry, can't sell you one". "Look, a) it's not mains gas, b) I installed the hob myself including the jet changes, and c) the hob is currently sitting there with the lid off waiting for a new one, I've already taken the old one off. I'll just put it back together and stick with matches unless you sell me a new one - which do you think will be safer?" Or words to that effect. Can't remember how we got it sorted - I did eventually get another, but it might have involved speaking to his manager or something).
cheers, clive
The say something like, " DIY gas work may be illegal". FUD is ever there was. There is one DIY forum highjacked bu Corgi members, who constant FUD that DIY is illegal. Wankers the lot of them.
In message , Doctor Drivel writes
diynot ?
The message from John Stumbles contains these words:
Corgi claim that they date from 1970 but they didn't manage to make professional installation the preserve of their members until much much later. Late 1980s IIRC.
And they are still being economical with the truth. The paragraph below is their current take on the subject. Pack of lies really. Nothing in "About Corgi" that anyone competent can do not for payment gas work nor or about disbarring the cowboys who have been rumbled.
"In recent years, registration has become a legal requirement for anyone installing or repairing gas fittings or appliances. So, you can be sure that any work completed by a CORGI technician will be done competently and safely."
Corgi only applies to anyone who "makes money" from touching gas equipment.
Yes Maxie. Did they ban you Maxie for daring to criticise them? I occasionally look in and the forum is virtually a self interest group. If a DIYer asks for info the first thing they say is only Corgi people can touch the appliance, which is total tripe.
They put this garbage on a sticky in their FAQ. Laughable!!
'As the current law stands, if you are able to prove competence, then you are allowed legally to diy gas in your own home.'
'This, however, does not apply to doing gas work for friends and family who may be considered as "employing" you whether for gain or not! '
THIS IS BOLLOCKS!
'If you do gas work for someone else you must be Corgi registered! '
THIS IS BOLLOCKS! ...and they give THEIR own definition of competency as if it is law. Hilarious!......
'DEFINITION OF COMPETENCY
Competence will depend on a combination of training and experience, which is only proven by passing the ACS assessment. This is the only accreditation recognized by HSE and Corgi, and if you haven't been trained you will be working illegally! '
There is nothing in law that says that ACS is the measure of competency. These people are running a self interest group for sure, directing people to the nearest Corgi man.
Corgi is a registration authority only. It registers the people who make money from touching gas appliances - the professional. Those who are not professional is not their concern and they refer the matter to the HSE.
My old 1988 gas hob had a 1.5v battery spark gen - brilliant. New gas hob for vessel had mains spark gen - useless. Found a Stoves cooker that used a 1.5v batt spark gen and got one of those. Of course it would not fit into hob, so had to re engineer hob back - cut hole, extend wires etc etc to new generator.
CORGI are as bad as the LPG bottle gas consortium who will not permit the use of rechargeable bottles due to erroneous H&S interpretation - will allow filling of LPG car tank through pipe work that cannot be seen, but will not allow direct connection to bottle using car type connector where all connections are clearly visible. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
All these QUANGOs come under the phrase "Any form of assistance short of actual help"
Anyone can practice as a doctor...
I very much doubt the person who put the screw in would have known where to expect cables etc anyway. And 5 degrees is a tiny amount of error.
The message from John Stumbles contains these words:
Not necessarily but given their commitment to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth I would like to keep my options open. I certainly hadn't heard of them before they rose to prominence following the HSE restrictions. British Gas seemed to be omnipresent back in the
1980s and it was a gloating note about diy with a gas bill that first alerted me to the new regulations. BG were forced to rescind their gloating note some time later but Corgi have been attempting to peddle the no diy message ever since."Do Not DIY With Gas
Although there are many DIY tasks you can safely perform at home, unless you are a trained professional, working with gas appliances is not one of them. CORGI?s Spring Campaign is focused on letting DIY dynamos know the dangers of DIY?ing with gas.
According to statistics released by safety organisation the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA), over 200,000 people are injured whilst undertaking some form of DIY project in their home each year. With figures like this it?s not surprising that a new craze is on the increase; GSI or "Get Someone In".
And they are still at it. I wonder how many of those 200,000 people were injured DIYing gas or indeed what level of injury they are citing.
According to RoSpa "More than 200,000 DIY enthusiasts turn up at hospital each year" but they don't seem to give any more detailed information. However they also say "Every year in the UK almost 4,000 people die in accidents in the home and 2.7 million turn up at accident and emergency departments seeking treatment" so DIY is probably safer than not DIYing. :-)
I dare say they lobbied very hard for a scheme that excluded everyone who wasn't a member of their self interest group. Had they not lobbied the HSE might never have been pressured into having a registration scheme in the first place.
If Corgi dates from 1970 then they started life as just another trade association whatever gloss they now want to put on it.
As a matter of interest how did Capita manage to displace them?
The paragraph quoted contains two statements, both false.
You are. It is not at the bottom. :-)
I didn't see it. It is not part of the "about Corgi" text and doesn't actually stand out if you are reading that text. And is not what one would expect having just read "So, you can be sure that any work completed by a CORGI technician will be done competently and safely". If that were true the only reason for removing members would be for non payment of fees.
I for one amongst other pros support competent DIY.
The analogy with driving is, IMHO, pertinent. The difference is that driving is something that the bulk of the adult population are certified as competent to do (or were when they took their test).
It might well be that someone with common sense and some basic knowledge of the highway code and some experience can drive a vehicle in good conditions. And do so without exposing other road users to excessive risk.
The is no way, however, that the DSA can start encouraging people "to have a go by themselves" to gain experience not withstanding that for driving this would be illegal anyway.
We do get posts on here from time to time for people wanting some more background info on gas fitting and sometimes they hint at (or even show) their ignorance of significant issues.
On matters electrical (before the stupid prat P) reply postings were often given along the lines of "you are permitted to do this but are you really up to it yet if you think it's just about...?".
Likewise with gas, I myself am not permitted to work professionally with LPG but if I had to do some LPG work for myself I would
a) find out about the subject b) using my existing skills and experience do it.
In general I don't think safety or civilisation is helped by keeping the "knowledge" of any subject a secret. If a professional is only offering their knowledge then these days that is not much of an asset.
A professional is offering their equipment and experience which together with common sense and the "knowledge" should make for a safe and cost effective job. If you don't see a pro offering that sort of "added value" then you really either need to do it yourself or find a better pro.
People who post here are usually fairly savvy individuals relative to the rest of Joe Public and with a few exceptions are probably up to some gas fitting with adequate prepration.
On Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:45:51 +0100 someone who may be "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote this:-
Indeed.
It is a sign of good workmanship to check for cables before drilling holes. After all many cables were installed before the "area of expectancy" was defined, IIRC in an amendment to the 15th Edition.
While it would have been crass at the time to place some of the blame where it was due, on the widower, those who are charge of drawing up rules should be sure their thinking is clear. If it is not then they will come up with the sort of rubbish the Labour Party tends to come up with.
In message , Doctor Drivel writes
I just got bored
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