Condemning central heating boilers ...

On 18/11/2010 01:41, Arfa Daily wrote: ...

The type of boiler you want, with a separate indirect water heating circuit, is called a system boiler.

Colin Bignell

Lack of efficiency isnt a reason to condemn a boiler. However be aware of excuses being sought.

NT

It'll certainly be used along with "can't get the parts" which may well be true or difficult.

Don't confuse a combi boiler with a condensing boiler. All new boilers these days will be condensing but not all boilers are combis.

Had a back boiler/gas fire based CH system installed 30 years ago. It wasn't long before BG started: "No flue plate, not up to modern standards", then "can't get the spares for this", then "ventilation too low". ITMT the service technicians use a smoke candle to test the draught by holding it next to the gas fire heat outlet grille rather than the boiler inlet (which was just above floor level).

I got the strong impression that they were out to condemn this boiler by any means possible, so much so that for the last seven years we were there I never had it serviced. It never needed any spare parts in the time we had it.

It took us through the coldest winter of the last thirty years, for an annual gas bill of £500 - and SWMBO liked things warm, in a middle-sized 60s-built semi.

Any financial model suggested that replacement with a modern boiler would never pay its way. Old boilers just continue to work - in the 30 years ours was going, next door had at least three and it might have been four.

The other thing to consider is that modern boilers might be super-efficient, well over 90 percent. But that is defined as heat out divided by gas input, for just the boiler. Put one in a system and then you find there are overflow radiators to get rid of excess heat, radiators in what was the airing cupboard, heat loss along the hot water pipes - you'll never find find a figure for the efficiency of a complete system, for some strange reason.

Our back-boiler exhausted up the chimney, and on snowy days there was no area on the roof around it that was any more devoid of snow, than the neighbours with efficient boilers. All that heat was going into the house somewhere...

It's your choice...good luck!

TF

Aren't these heating only boilers?

Thanks everyone, for all the good advice. We do actually know a 'tame' CORGI plumber / heating engineer. Perhaps in the first instance, we should get him round to take a look. At least we wouldn't get any bull from him, and if he did say for any reason that it was unsafe, we could probably at least trust that as being the truth ...

Arfa

Terry Fields gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

Probably because it'd be a very install-specific figure, and would be totally useless in comparing one component of the system - the boiler.

As for "rad in the airing cupboard" - if you've got a combi, like wot we have, then it's the only way you actually _get_ an "airing cupboard"... Thermostatic valve on it, keep the door shut, and it's going to "use" very little heat.

The very concept of an "overflow radiator to get rid of excess heat" sounds to me like a rather immense misunderstanding or a complete and utter fuckup.

It's pretty common for service types to lie about condemning old boilers for many reasons. Inefficiency, can't get new parts, etc. BG being just as guilty as others. But these are mainly lies. However, saying you could save a large amount in running costs is true. A modern system should save you at least 25% on your actual bill.

Not drop in. These days it will likely be a system boiler. This has everything but the hot water cylinder built in. Ie, includes pump, three way valve and pressure unit. All systems are sealed these days rather than open vent. For most they will also be wall mounting as they're smaller - unless you have a huge house. But of course could go where your existing boiler is.

The big snag is it will take some years to recover the capital cost of having a new boiler installed by the reduced gas bills. It may well be less reliable than those old cast iron basic units so cost more in 'servicing' too. That is a decision for only yourself.

Agreed. The consumer has been convinced that boilers are consumable items, like washing machines - hence the recent thread, 'Should my 4 year-old boiler be repaired or replaced/unbelievable - but it conveniently ignores the installation, maintenance and repair costs. A basic boiler, though less efficient, will run for years with no problems whatsoever apart from the odd thermocouple. The instant efficiency comparison is totally misleading, but very convenient for the industry.

Andy C

That's why i said that out chimney seemed, from the lack of melting snow, to be no warmer (at roof height) than any of our neighbours. The heat was staying in the house.

Isn't there mandatory ventilation these days in newly-installed windows, or did the Prescott thing die a death?

Doubtless including the 'service engineer' who set fire to my wallpaper and his eyebrows because he claimed the inlet control valve had been fitted the wrong way round. Funny that no other 'service engineer' made the same mistake.

TF

Quite. Using the 'not up to modern standards'ploy seems to be an old (con) trick. The system only needs to meet the standards extant at the time of installation.

TF

The one I have isn't.

Colin Bignell

I replaced an 20 year old Ideal Mexico five years ago. It did result in a big fuel saving, a significant amount being wasted on a pilot light. On the other hand it was part of a major reworking of kitchen, bathroom and heating systems and it cost over £2,000 to replace. So saving something on the fuel bill was a secondary benefit.

A combi boiler is not the same thing as a condensing boiler. A modern boiler will have to be a condensing boiler is does not have to be a combi.

All things considered I would not replace a boiler that was working for a modern one, any saving on the gas bill would not be enough to cover the outlay on a replacement.

heating

What could the difference be? You have a primary loop that the boiler heats, sometimes the flow goes through radiators in rooms, sometimes the flow goes through a raditor surrounded by other water...

A System boiler contains the pump internally and is designed for a sealed heating system. It will have a different number of pipe connections than a plain heating-only boiler.

No, they are just boilers. They heat the water up and your valve(s) then directs the heated water to either the radiators or to heat the water in the tank - exactly as before.

My old Kingfisher - with pilot light - was in the bathroom, and kept it toastie warm. Very few days of the year when a bathroom is too hot. So in that case the heat from the pilot light wasn't wasted.

harry formulated the question :

The Ideal ICOS is just one of the "just-the-boiler" type.

There seems to be quite a few of them if you Google for "heat only boiler".

Cheers,

Colin.