On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:22:55 GMT, JimGC strung together this:
Hmm, from information I've found it could be either so it's a draw!
From some spares lists I've found it would appear that it is one of those conventional boilers with the pump and valves built into it. I think I've worked on a couple before, is it the one with a big turn dial programmer on the right? I could be way off the mark here but it is late!
Now I've checked a little further, I'm sure it is. It's the programmable deluxe model, circa 1982!
Makes sense, particularly in the light of the what Tech Support people said. I just hope the repairer can get the parts (I've asked Worcester Bosch).
Absolutely. If I owned this flat it would be replaced tomorrow. As I don't, I'm not quite sure where I stand. Should the owner replace or repair it? At £1000+ for the replacement, I'm not sure they'll take kindly to that.. ! But I'm certainly not paying £1000 in a flat with a short term arrangement such as I have right now ..
Thanks, Jim
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There seems to be a huge number of "heatslaves" some combi and some not. Obviously decided that once they have a good name they ought to stick with it!
(My Isar does the pre tempering bit, but it is not something you can turn off as such)
...
Do you mean: should they do _something_ about it, or do you mean which? I assume it's the landlord's appliance (it'll say so on the landlord's gas safety certificate - which they _have_ given you a copy of, haven't they?!) so it's up to them to sort it out (though that's a matter between you and them and any tenancy agreement you have, as with any other repairs). As such I wouldn't be getting any repairs done off my own bat, though you may have to get a repairer in to testify that it's faulty to have leverage to get your landlord to deal with it.
At £1000+ for the
If they can get it repaired (i.e. parts available and appliance is safe to use) then fair enough: once it's fixed it shouldn't be desperately expensive for you to run even if it's a pilot light model (which I think it is). However it's not going to last much longer so IMHO it would be a bit short sighted of your landlord to patch it up rather than replace it. But that's landlords for you :-)
Yup, if you want confusing here is the place to come ;-)
(the fault finding info you got from WB would establish if the diverter valve is getting the right signal to switch to HW mode. The diverter is the bit of a combi that will "divert" the heated water away from the heating circuit, and toward (typically) a secondary heat exchanger to heat the water for the taps)
If you look at the Sedbuk boiler database thingy (follow the link at the bottom of Tony Bryer's post to download a copy), they list some 35 different "heatslave" boilers. Some are combis, and some not.
So it is not too supprising that they did not contradict your description given the range of boilers with the same name is vast.
The Heatslave 2 G50 is shown in two versions - one conventional flue, one balanced. Neither are combis. Both have a lowish power output of under 15kW. Production date is shown as 1984 which sounds like the right sort of ball park.
Again feed and expansion suggests an open vented heating system. Many combis would use a sealed system. Details of these here:
They could be talking about a flow rate through the boilers heat exchanger (i.e. the bit that transfers heat from the flame to the water) of three gallons per minute. Typically the heating system is a closed loop of pipework (and radiators) with a pump to circulate the water. Each pass made by the water through the boiler will raise its temperature a "bit" (the size of the "bit" will depend on many factors, but 10 to 20 degrees C per pass is quite common).
If they were talking about the flow rate delivered by the HW side of a combi then 3gpm (or 13.5 litres/min) would suggest a pretty powerful boiler (say 35kW or more). None of the heatslaves seem to have that sort of power.
I could be wrong, but from your descriptions I would guess you have a conventional boiler. Which would mean you also have a hot water cylinder somewhere (airing cupboard?), and there would be a pump somewhere.
If that is the case, then there could be a number of ways the whole thing is plumbed up, and hence a number of ways for it to go wrong. Either way describing your problem to a plumber who can actually look at the thing should get you closer to a solution.
"John Stumbles" wrote | JimGC wrote: | > Absolutely. If I owned this flat it would be replaced | > tomorrow. As I don't, I'm not quite sure where I stand. | > Should the owner replace or repair it? | Do you mean: should they do _something_ about it, or do you mean which? | I assume it's the landlord's appliance (it'll say so on the landlord's | gas safety certificate - which they _have_ given you a copy of, haven't | they?!) so it's up to them to sort it out (though that's a matter | between you and them and any tenancy agreement you have, as with any | other repairs).
Although for a short term rent it should be the landlord's responsibility (possibly even if the tenancy agreement says differently). The landlord can't let an uninhabitable house, which is what a house without hot water is considered to be nowadays. CAB might be a good point of contact, or some councils have housing advice services that will deal with private sector rents.
| As such I wouldn't be getting any repairs done off my | own bat, though you may have to get a repairer in to testify that it's | faulty to have leverage to get your landlord to deal with it.
It is probably against the tenancy agreement for the tenant to make any alteration to the property; if the OP does any work on the boiler the landlord might claim it is damaged and pursue the full costs of replacement against the tenant :-(
| If they can get it repaired (i.e. parts available and appliance is safe | to use) then fair enough: once it's fixed it shouldn't be desperately | expensive for you to run even if it's a pilot light model (which I think | it is). However it's not going to last much longer so IMHO it would be a | bit short sighted of your landlord to patch it up rather than replace | it. But that's landlords for you :-)
If it can be patched up to last until the warmer weather that might be preferable to leaving a tenant without heating.
Owain
"JimGC" wrote | I suspect my next move is to get a CORGI engineer in to | do the above checks and give the thing a once | over - not just for safety but for operating efficiency. I | wonder whether this is my responsibility or the landlord?
It is your landlord's duty to provide you with a copy of the current annual Landlord's Gas Safety Certificate. Failure to do so is a criminal offence. It is also his responsibility to keep the heating and hot water systems in usable order which I think includes telling you how to work them. Operating efficiency (cost of running) is not an obligation, however, and will not be checked by a safety inspection.
Owain
Ah then you do have a two channel programmer, the Heatslave is fairly unusual in this respect. Most folks would run this device HW all day, CH twice (YMMV) That way you can use hot water at any time you are awake i.e. dawn till bedtime. The heatslave has a primary hot water "store" which remains hot while the boiler is on duty and this is pumped around a secondary heat exchanger whose job is to use the high temperature primary water to heat up the secondary (tap) water.
From the above I'm beginning to suspect that you may have an excessive flow rate for your secondary (tap) water and what is happening is the heat removed from the store is not replaced as fast as you are taking it away. It is possible also that your burner is not producing heat at the full rate it should be but I'd look at the tapwater flow rate before diving into the combustion side
Not really it is charging up the heatstore or replacing losses when it slowly cools down
To start with take a two gallon (9litre) bucket and fill it from your fastest flowing hot tap - usually the bathtap. Time this operation to a reasonable degree of accuracy and let us know what your results are. The more recent heatslaves are probably much better in all ways than the old ones but once you have carried out the timing test allow the heatstore to recover then try reducing the flow rate to something around two gallons a minute and see if the running out of hot water still persists. I don't have the performance figures of the heatslave to hand but you may find them in the installation and service booklet if its still with the boiler (faint hope). Otherwise Worcester can no doubt provide this info.
See my other post on this unit. The more modern heatslaves suffer from excessive numbers of plastic bits but generally are relatively simple if a bit on the bulky side. I could see everything about this combi even at its age being replaceable. In short unless the landlord is feeling particularly flush its gonna be a fixit job. :-)
Get a thermostatic mixer valve inbetween the boiler DHW out and the hot water taps, that will minimize the temperature swings, but will not do anything to the boiler not being able to keep up with a large load!
Combi boilers are a good idea on paper, because they make for a very simple installation (ie. you can get rid of the DHW tank) but are seldom up for the job simply because they cannot provide enough hot water when you want to take a good long shower.
Then get a thermostatic showervalve, that will use only the hot water required to satisfy your requirements regardless of water temperature comming from the boiler. The boilr will still have to be able to keep up with your use of hot water, but you don't get scalded and then waste a lot of hot water waiting for it too cool down or waste it trying to get the shower set correctly.
That maybe because some combi boilers come with a small hot water tank that is used to small loads, ie. a little bit of hot water to wash hands, but when a larger load comes along the boiler will fire up and try to keep up with the load.
Yes but in autumn the incomming water was probably warmer so less energy was required to heat the water to the required temperature, my incomming water swings between 5°C and 9°Cdepending on season...
/Morten
I have a Worcester Heatslave in a rented property - with the same symptoms. The problem is almost certainly the diaphragm in the diverter valve.It's rubber and perishes. You find that the CH works fine, but the DHW is affected. You should find that the best temporary measure is to have the central heating ON, when you run the bath, and turn the flow down until the hot water runs hotter, and for longer. With the CH off - the DHW runs colder! The part is still available - diaphragm around £15, ot the complete diverter valve around £70. Get the part number from Worcester and you can get from Curzon - a nationwide chain 0870 5103030. My tenants are putting up with this because I'm replacing the boiler when the weather's a bit warmer , as well as carrying out other refurbishments. Yours is an old boiler, but could still give years of service, it's not necssarily a reflection on the landlord(s).
Thanks for all of that - noted. I think th only sensible thing is to get the agent to call in an engineer and have the whole thing assessed. I've spoken to the neighbours who had/have similar boilers, and they say they're all on their way out and need to be replaced. One neighbour had hers moved as well as replaced and it cost her £2500!
Complicated - and expensive - business.
Thanks to everyone who replied - really helpful stuff and I now know a lot more about combi boilers!
Jim
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No not really, it's fairly simple as long as you understand how things are done, unfortunately there's alot of work done that doesn't need to be done and quite a few cases of wrong advices and outright day-robbery by people who knows against the rest of us who don't know.
Greed, that's what it is, people wan't more and are getting quite good at abusing the people who dont know...
/Morten
If there is no hot water coming from the boiler then a thermostatic mixer is not going to do anything useful, it can't heat the water!
Sorry, but that is nonsense really. One of the things that most combis are very good at is showers. The time they can be poor (the lower powered ones at least) if providing the high flow rate of water required to run a bath quickly, or to provide for several users simultaneously.
He would be better spending the money to get the boiler to work. If it is a combi, it obviously has a fault.
Correct, but it will make the too hot water last longer because you're mixing it with cold water intil the required temperature is reached. When the incomming water gets to cold you're back to sq1 but it will take longet to reach this state...
/Morten
With a stored water system this will be true, with a combi that is working correctly it should not make any difference since the hot should not run out...
(Still worth having a mixer mind you, to protect you from scalding / freezing every time a tape gets turned on elsewhere when you are in the shower!)
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