CH motorised valves gripe

A cautionary tale for those investigating probs with their central heating:

A couple of years ago I finally tracked down a problem that had had generations of visiting plumbers busy, in frenzied and expensive, radiator bleeding / pump replacing exercises, all to no effect, at a friend's house. On careful analysis it turned out to be the motorised valve actuator (Danfoss) that was the culprit all along.

More specifically, it was due to the pair of crap semi-micro switches inside the actuator, which perform an elaborate 'dance' with the motor to wind the valve back and forth between the three port positions. As with all contacts (like the equally crap ones in mouse buttons), they need cleaning from time to time, but as these are fixed inside the actuator assembly they are both difficult to get at, and even more difficult to clean, or replace.

When the main one of these gets dirty and stops conducting, the valve stops in the half-way position, and the room thermostat appears to have packed up, as it 'ceases to turn the 'CH' off' because the water keeps circulating even when it is apparently set at HW only. There is also less pump power to the (wrongly shared) CH side, so people start trying to rebalance/bleed etc. rads, and eventually start blaming the pump. The last thing anyone seems to think of is the valve actuator for some reason (possibly because they are so outrageously expensive!).

Back then, initially, I tried to just replace the switches, and did manage a short term repair after replacing one of them: they are very cheap even at Maplins. The other one soon failed, however, and the way it was mounted led to the ancient plastic mounting plate breaking when I tried to get it off.

So had to grit teeth and face up to buying a new valve/actuator assembly: and thought I'd better do the valve as well while I was at it (which also means more expensive/inhibitor, anti knock down the drain: if only I'd thought to put a stop c*ck on the outlet to the ch system header tank while I was at it...)

After extensive reading of these columns and those of the Screwfix Forum - and some very silly stick from posters who simply would not believe that a semi-micro switch could ever fail - I decided to opt for the more expensive Honeywell V4073A valve and actuator which cost me £60.44 on 15 Nov 2005.

Up until now this seemed to have been a good buy: it had been easy to fit; had what seemed like a clever ball arrangement rather than flaps in the valve itself; and a quiet and smooth switching action.

However, I recently began to notice that the CH seemed to be on when it should not be, so had a closer look yesterday: AND Lo!, inside are just the same crap switches as in the Danfoss! At first, all seemed not lost, as these ones were mounted on their own little circuit board, which could be removed for easy working. Unfortunately, the way they were arranged, they could not be opened for cleaning until one had been removed from the board, but once open they were easy to clean the muck off the contacts.

In the Honeywell case however, there was the additional crapness of a largish 12k resistor which had been dry jointed and was coming in at 20k as a result, and overheating the circuit board to boot. So I had to resolder this along with the cleaned switch.

Then the fun really started! How they assembled the thing I don't know, but the actuating cams/gears/springs etc, are mounted on such a flimsy metal plate that it is almost impossible to put the actuator back on the valve and still have moving parts at the end - the slightest overtightening of a screw, and the whole thing distorts and nothing moves. "Grrr" - and worse, I said many times as I struggled in a corner of a tight cupboard with a red hot water cylinder, for hours to get it to work 'properly'. (Yes I emptied the tank in the end; and yes; the water in the resulting bath was cold by the time I was ready for it!)

Once it became mobile, another problem presented itself, in that, on moving to the centre position from either side, an oscillating motion tended to be set up with the motor driving its cam against the switch arms/springs and being bounced rather than operating the switch that turns it off. Click, click, click, click etc. It may well have been this oscillation tendency which had burned the switch contacts 'prematurely'.

With much fiddling, I managed to - temporarily I expect - bend the switch arms enough to correct the bounce, and get it all 'working'.

BUT what a load of crap for what a load of cash!

With this experience, I can say that, if I had had the old Danfoss (really old) heavy duty gearing, and the Honeywell circuitboard switch mounting method, I could have at least had an assembly that was easy to get on and off and reasonably robust; with switches that could be replaced occasionally. But why are they allowed to get away with still using the same 'failure guaranteed' switches whilst charging prices which ought to come with a lifetime guarantee?!

As I would imagine that numerous CH systems must be in a similar state - unless I have just been extremely unlucky! - with many other people throwing away money trying to solve 'circulation/air lock/pump/thermostat' problems, unaware of the nature of these valve actuators, I thought UK-Diy'ers might appreciate this tip.

With any luck some people reading this might save themselves from wasting cash test-replacing non faulty parts of their systems.

As for a permanent solution: fraid I don't know. Anyone know of any valve actuators that work a completely different and reliable way? At a sensible price?

Take care,

S
Reply to
spamlet
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" five minutes to fit" !

Honeywell? Danfoss? Don't know how the current Danfoss are fixed, but if you can unsolder a sw from the Honeywell board and replace it in five minutes, I take my hat off to you. Even with a desoldering 'gun' it took me at least that long to clean the holes. Also very impressed that you managed to line up the various cams and levers while under spring tension, enough to get them back over the valve stem. As it seems to be only the stem itself that keeps them in line I found this to be very fiddly indeed.

Good luck with your millions of operations: my experience says you will need to be doing this again in about 2 years.

Regards,

S
Reply to
spamlet

I just repaired one a couple of months ago, the switches cost about 90p from Maplin and take five minutes to fit, they should last for millions of operations but that's at room temp and they tend to be hot.

Reply to
dennis
[snip tale of 3 port valves]

I used to use 3 port valves. After numerous failures of micro switches I modified the system to S plan+ using 2 port valves. Problem solved.

Apart from possible heating from the resistor, and hunting, I can't think why the 3 port valves are so much less reliable.

Reply to
<me9

Sorry to hear of the numerous failures Brian (but not at all surprised!). Possibly the difference in reliability may be due to that 'bounce tendency' as I suspected (your 'hunting' I presume), which occurs at the middle position, that is done away with in the two port valves.

Shame to have had to redo the whole system to get around the problem though. We have a plumber coming to install an extra loo and shower - which means yet more pipes in the cupboard - so this might be a point for us to look at modifying the current layout too.

Cheers.

S
Reply to
spamlet

In message , spamlet writes

now, if you'd read the uk.d-i-y FAQ, ...

I'm not sure why you had such problems, I used to repair them some years ago, not that difficult to repair

Reply to
geoff

I have had systems in two houses with Honeywell three way valve actuators, up to ten years old. Never had a problem with the micro switches. Have had a number of motors fail though. Always at an inconvenient time. Solved that by buying an extra motor - never went wrong after that! After all the switches only operate, say, 10 times a day , shouldn't be a problem. Certainly the motor problem has been posted here several times but I don't recall hearing about microswitch problems until now.

Reply to
Bob Mannix

Poosibly a matter of dexterity and practice there Geoff. Anyway the OP has enjoyed a good whinge. Most right thinking folk would have simply swapped the powerhead and enjoyed the rest of the day free.

Reply to
cynic

You can replace a Danfoss actuator for 30-odd quid - it just isn't worth trying to fix them.

As others have said, the only *real* solution is to convert to an S-Plan system, with two 2-port valves - which is what I've just done.

The problem with the 3-port valve is that it's too clever by half - and has multiple modes of failure, many of which are not that easy to diagnose. In particular, getting the thing to sit at the mid position without hunting really challenges the laws of physics!

Reply to
Roger Mills

There's no hunting in the mid position unless something's broken or wasn't wired properly. The motor's rotor is locked in mid position by feeding it DC (or half-wave rectified AC), which is generated in the head by a diode in the circuit.

I am the first point of call for a number of heating systems around my family. Most have a mid position valve and none have failed. One's about 5 years old, and the others all at least

10 years old. They are a mixture of makes.
Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

I have to admit that none of mine (and I've needed several in the last 18 years) have actually suffered from hunting, but several people have mentioned hunting in recent threads - so it *does* appear to be a problem.

But the fact remains that the thing is overly complicated and seems prone to more frequent failure than its 2-port cousin. One day when I've got nothing better to do (so it may never happen!) I'll count up the number of CH problem threads in uk.d-i-y where the ultimate diagnosis has pointed to a problem with a 3-port valve. I shall need a lots of hands and feet to count them!

Reply to
Roger Mills

It's probably a symptom of some failure, such as one of the contacts not working or the diode going open-circuit. If I had some free time (not at the moment), I might sit down and work out what could cause it.

Reply to
Andrew Gabriel

"The OP has enjoyed a good whinge. Most right thinking folk would have simply swapped the powerhead and enjoyed the rest of the day free."

"but I don't recall hearing about microswitch problems until now."

And, presumably, you don't want to hear about them? You like forking out £60's every two years to buy the same faulty kit over and over.

"There's no hunting in the mid position unless something's broken or wasn't wired properly."

"It's probably a symptom of some failure, such as one of the contacts not working"

Quite. :-(

I cannot claim wide experience of CH systems, but both those I have had to look at, had had a lot of money thrown at them without identifying the fault, before I sat down to try and sort them out myself, and both had failed in exactly the same way due to exactly the same burned semi-micro switches - of which I have pictures if anyone is still in doubt.

As I indicated, the majority of users are probably quite unaware when their valves are not working properly: the rads and water still get hot when their 'on' cycles are lit: only the room thermostat gives the game away when it appears to fail to override the programmer.

Trust these devices if you must. I don't have the luxury of being able to afford to. Perhaps there are some people reading uk.d-i-y who aren't moneyed experts and this information might save them some time and money. If there are no non-rich-experts using this forum, and anyone else who takes the time to offer up useful information is just going to be sniped at, what is it for?

S
Reply to
Spamlet

In message , Spamlet writes

Ah, but if you'd looked here - in the uk.d-i-y FAQs

formatting link
symptoms are well known to most regulars here, and a request would prolly have brought a quick answer

p.s. it's a newsgroup, not a forum

Reply to
geoff

Thanks for the tip Geoff,

but as I, am sure like most people, just selected this news group from a list provided by my service provider I had no idea there was any on line version, with FAQs or anything else, and as the whole point of having a news reader is to avoid having to go on line and use clumsy and pop up ridden web based fora, I am not likely to have come across any FAQ's, as this defeats the object of having a news reader!

Anyhow, I will now have a look, so cheers.

Might it be possible to organise a permanent post at the top of downloaded news messages pointing out the parent site and its FAQs to any newcomers who arrive by the same route as me?

S
Reply to
Spamlet

In message , Spamlet writes

Well, no it doesn't, the FAQ is there so that people don't keep on asking the same questions which come up time and time again. Your post more or less falls into this class.

If you read up on netiquette, you will find that one is advised to lurk for a time to get a feeling for the group, which would have given you a chance to see a pointer to the FAQs

Reply to
geoff

I reckon that my Danfoss actuators have each worked reliably for at least 5 years - and not all failures have been due to micro-switches - the motor got tired on the last one. I think the last replacement cost me about £35 - so I'm not sure that I can really complain about a cost of £7 p.a.

I *have* taken some of the failed ones apart, and concluded that whereas I

*could* replace components, it was very fiddly and not really worth it.

I think the concensus is that these valves do cause *some* annoyance, but are don't really merit the major rant which they received in your initial post.

As others have said, 2-port valves seem to be more reliable (and are certainly a lot less complicated). So maybe you should convert your system to S-Plan to avoid having to keep replacing the 3-port valve. Even so,

2-port valves are not guaranteed to work for ever!
Reply to
Roger Mills

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