CFL short life

[Clive George]

What would cause a CFL to have a short life? The ones I'm wondering about are in the living room, and are typically switched on when it gets dark and off when we go to bed.

cheers, clive

[Alan]

In message , Clive George wrote

Heat. Try touching one when they have been on for a short while.

[Roger]

The message from "Clive George" contains these words:

No idea but I have 3 cfls horizontal in an enclosed housing in my living room and the bulb that failed this year had been in several years. The incandescent bulbs I started out with used to last less than 2 weeks on average.

[Andrew Gabriel]

Overheating, frequent switching, poor design and/or manufacture.

What make/model? What power rating? What type of light fitting? What life did you get? What was the failure mode?

[Derek Geldard]

uk.environment.conservation added.

There's your problem then.

They typically last 50++ years. But you've been *using* them.

Messrs Hansen and Fisher on here will be along here in microseconds filling the place with green fartage to point that out. As well as saying they light instantaneously (well, not *actually*

*instantaneously*, within a few seconds - you know ;-)) ), and are as bright as the lamps they claim to replace.

Whereas they are as dim as a TocH lantern and take 3 mins to come up to their normal brightness, which, incidentally, is at least 25% down from what their manufacturers claim when they are brand new, dropping by a further 48% in the first 12 months.

I've made the measurements.

Sorry Clive, to address your issue more directly, your experience is normal for these products. That is the way they are.

This government of arts and law graduates has been suckered into being hyper-sold CFL's the performance of which has been spun out of all proportion in order to get European manufacturers of ordinary tungsten lamps closed down in favour of CFL's made in China for the benefit of some very big businesses.

Oh and BTW each CFL contains about 5gm of mercury and there is no safe method of disposal. Some of the most generous local authorities will allow you to dispose of 3 (three ! ) tubes per year at a municpal tip, per vehicle registration number.

I've got over 20 accumulated over the last 12 months to get shot of !

If anybody reading this has a local authority that permits more generous disposal I'd be very much obliged if you could post their details on here.

DG

[Andy Wade]

I haven't heard that expression for a long time.

A maximum of 5 mg, actually - _milli_grams, not grams! That limit's in the RoHS regulations. Also it's widely reckoned that the amount of mercury released to the environment from CFLs is less than would be emitted by fossil-fuel-burning power stations to power incandescent lamps producing an equivalent amount of light[1].

[1] See, for example:

[Dave Liquorice]

I'm curious has to how the new regulations on the sale of products with Hg in are going to affect flourescent lamps. They basically say no product can contain any Hg at all...

[Andy Wade]

The UK implementation of RoHS is in SI 2006 no. 1463, here:

(and other) lamps are covered by specific exemptions, viz.:

Exempt applications

1. Mercury in compact fluorescent lamps not exceeding 5 mg per lamp.

1. Mercury in straight fluorescent lamps for general purposes not exceeding (a) 10 mg for halophosphate lamps, (b) 5mg for triphosphate lamps with normal lifetime, and (c) 8 mg for triphosphate lamps with long lifetime.

2. Mercury in straight fluorescent lamps for special purposes.

1. Mercury in other lamps not specifically mentioned in this schedule.

Otherwise the Hg concentration limit is 0.1% by weight rather than zero. For Cd the limit is 0.01%

As to a future "total Hg ban", I think that only affects non-electrical uses, but at least barometers seem to have a reprieve:

[meow2222]

uk.environment.conservation added.

bit misleading.

NT

[meow2222]

1. Heat. Caused by an unventilated enclosed fitting, or by operating

20w+ lamps base-up.

1. Bad bulbs.

NT

[Clive George]

Now that sounds not entirely unlikely. Thanks for that.

cheers, clive

[Andrew Gabriel]

3mg is more typical now, in any case. This means there's 1000 times more mercury in the average human body than there is in one CFL (i.e. about 3g per person when cremated, mostly from dental fillings).

[Dave Liquorice]

I bet that is falling. How many young(*) people have a mouthful, as >75% of all molars and premolars filled, these days?

(*) By young I mean

[Derek Geldard]

But for some strange reason the regs permit in excess of 5 for some tube/phosphor combinations.

In a different physical form Where the Hg is sequestered away in an alloy of copper, tin, silver and zinc. etc ...

But, yes, crems are scary places, I try to keep away from them, If the Mercury doesn't get you the Dioxins will.

Remembering how easily zinc is leached out of brassware, I can't say I'm happy about this. I do believe there is a history of Mercury poisoning in dental assistants who mixed up the ingredients for Mercury amalgam fillings, in the days when it was done manually.

Fast Facts:

Mercury is the most toxic non-radioactive element on earth.

A silver-colored mercury amalgam filling normally contains 52 percent mercury.

On average, amalgam fillings weigh 1 gram and contain ½ gram of mercury.

The typical adult carries 10 amalgam fillings containing 5 grams of mercury.

Half a gram of mercury in a 10-acre lake would warrant issuance of a fish advisory for the lake.

So : A page possibly written by fruitcakes -but still no gross inaccuracies AFAICS...

report the case of a 38-year-old man who was exposed to toxic levels of inorganic mercury. METHOD. Four years after exposure, the patient was assessed using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), single- photon emission computerised tomography (SPECT) and detailed neuropsychological evaluation. RESULTS. The patient developed a myriad of physical and psychiatric complaints, including stomatitis, muscle spasm, tremor, skin rash and the psychiatric syndrome known as 'erythism' (Mad Hatter's disease). Neuropsychological evaluation revealed marked and significant deficits of attention concentration...

Oh, and let us not forget about Minamata disease ...

DG

[Derek Geldard]

You are correct, I got that wrong, 5gm as opposed to 5mg, I didn't query it because I have seen balls of free liquid mercury way above milligram levels rolling around inside fluorescent tubes, also I was taught to use the avoirdupois sytem of weighing at school and have no immediate / intuitive feel for how much a gram actually is.

Not that the amount is mentioned on the packaging anyway, no hazard warnings, no materials safety data sheet, no clean up instructions, no instructions as to what to do if you break one and cut yourself on the broken glass contaminating the wound with Hg and the phosphor. AIUI even 5mg of Hg is enough to pollute 30,000 litres of drinking water.

In the USA one poor woman broke a CFL in a bedroom and was silly enough to phone the City Hall for advice, They couldn't give her any advice, instead they sent an inspector who insisted the whole bedroom was disposed of as toxic waste. 8-((

And it's higher than 5mg for some tubes.

So they say ...

Firstly CFLs do not give the amount of light their proponents say they do, so all bets are off. They give about 25 -30% less when brand new and that will have gone down by about *another* 48% after 12 months service. To get the same light on average over 2 years would need 3x as many lamps. They are crap to start with and then they tail off.

Secondly they don't last 5years / 8years / 20 years either, the Hg gets adsorbed into the internal surfaces and is no longer available to contribute to the discharge, also starting around 18 months service the tube ends blacken and (uniquely to CFLs) the phosphor gets scoured off the bends in the tubes, that's if the electronics hasn't already given out. 9 - 18 months is nearer the mark so even more CFLs (hence more Hg) would be needed to get the same light output as GLS filament lamps replaced continually as they fail.

Thirdly, The pollution arising from firing a power station (hopefully!) is controlled so that it is dispersed high in the atmosphere and won't pollute any single location to any dangerous extent whereas as few as 500 fluorescent lamps per year would require a site (a large school for example) to register with the Environment Agency as a producer of hazardous waste.

output for CFLs which cannot be achieved when brand new let alone maintained for 5 / 8 / 20 years afterwards.

HTH.

DG

[T i m]

In the day to day world though, I wonder how many punters know what light they expect off what bulb and just experiment with them till they get the right light levels? Like we put a 15W (or similar) CFL in the hall dusk-till-dawn fitting and then replaced it with an 8W as it was way too bright. Even the 8W is a bit bright.

Erm, some can. I generally write the date on the CFL when I install it and the last one I replaced had been in there for ~7 years? It is on a time switch so is on ~6pm to 1am, every day. I'm not suggesting they all last that long of course, same with anything you get good and bad ones and what-you-pay-for.

I built the garage some 15 years ago and fitted it with 6 flouro's. They are on at least 4 times a week and I've not changed one yet (and still have more than enough light).

There are only a few fittings here that won't take CFL's easily and they are the ones where I am 'constantly' (in comparison to the CFL's anyway) having to change them.

I have no problems with the light they produce either because in my world they are for illumination not 'style' or 'effect', none of this 'mood' stuff and 100 mini spots that regularly trip the power (like round my mates place)! ;-(

Incidentally, what efficiency do incandescent's typically run at?

I take your point on the potential pollution issues though.

All the best ..

T i m

[meow2222]

none are needed.

Its not recommended to drink broken CFLs, that much is true. Perhaps youre unaware that filament lamps also contain a toxin.

bs

We all know the marketing claims are inflated, but this makes zero difference to CFL lamps, which are exactly the same thing regardless of what marketing drivel is used.

No, they give whatever level of light you choose to purchase, which is anything from a fraction the amount to many times as much.

lists suppliers selling CFLs from 3w to 105w, roughly equivalent to 15w to 400w incandescent. One more spurious complaint.

Not that much. Filament lamps also fall in output over time.

sheer silliness. In reality many less CFLs are needed than filaments.

so?

If you read the packs of the ones with claims in years, you'll see those lives are conditional on so many hours a day use, ie its really an hours claim.

FWVLIW I had one that lasted well over 20 years.

honestly

I can see that being a serious issue for those of us with 500 linear fluorescent lights at home. Do you swallow this stuff whole?

Thats a fair point, but put the right figures in and the CFL still wins on mercury output by a fair margin.

NT

[David Hansen]

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 02:50:21 -0700 someone who may be [e-mail] wrote this:-

One person, it may be the same person, who said he had measured the light output of compact fluorescent lights was asked by me whether he had done the same for incandescent lights. He hadn't.

Ditto.

I have also had one that didn't last for a year, but other than that they have all lasted for a very log time.

[Dave Liquorice]

I thought they would be, the last I heard on this was on a news media site so accuracy and detail where a little thin.

until late 2009. I'm intrigued as to what the EU think can be used to replace Hg in a barometer.

[Andy Burns]

Water will work, but the barometer will be "slightly" longer, about 400" instead of 30"