CFL short life

What would cause a CFL to have a short life? The ones I'm wondering about are in the living room, and are typically switched on when it gets dark and off when we go to bed.
cheers, clive
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Heat. Try touching one when they have been on for a short while.
--
Alan
news2006 amac f2s com
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

No idea but I have 3 cfls horizontal in an enclosed housing in my living room and the bulb that failed this year had been in several years. The incandescent bulbs I started out with used to last less than 2 weeks on average.
--
Roger Chapman

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Overheating, frequent switching, poor design and/or manufacture.
What make/model? What power rating? What type of light fitting? What life did you get? What was the failure mode?
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Wed, 1 Aug 2007 21:27:01 +0100, "Clive George"
uk.environment.conservation added.

There's your problem then.
They typically last 50++ years. But you've been *using* them.
Messrs Hansen and Fisher on here will be along here in microseconds filling the place with green fartage to point that out. As well as saying they light instantaneously (well, not *actually* *instantaneously*, within a few seconds - you know ;-)) ), and are as bright as the lamps they claim to replace.
Whereas they are as dim as a TocH lantern and take 3 mins to come up to their normal brightness, which, incidentally, is at least 25% down from what their manufacturers claim when they are brand new, dropping by a further 48% in the first 12 months.
I've made the measurements.

Sorry Clive, to address your issue more directly, your experience is normal for these products. That is the way they are.
This government of arts and law graduates has been suckered into being hyper-sold CFL's the performance of which has been spun out of all proportion in order to get European manufacturers of ordinary tungsten lamps closed down in favour of CFL's made in China for the benefit of some very big businesses.
Oh and BTW each CFL contains about 5gm of mercury and there is no safe method of disposal. Some of the most generous local authorities will allow you to dispose of 3 (three ! ) tubes per year at a municpal tip, per vehicle registration number.
I've got over 20 accumulated over the last 12 months to get shot of !
If anybody reading this has a local authority that permits more generous disposal I'd be very much obliged if you could post their details on here.

DG
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Derek Geldard wrote:

I haven't heard that expression for a long time.

A maximum of 5 mg, actually - _milli_grams, not grams! That limit's in the RoHS regulations. Also it's widely reckoned that the amount of mercury released to the environment from CFLs is less than would be emitted by fossil-fuel-burning power stations to power incandescent lamps producing an equivalent amount of light[1].
[1] See, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_fluorescent_lamp#Environmental_issues http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A22400182 http://www.nema.org/lamprecycle/epafactsheet-cfl.pdf
--
Andy

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 07:46:59 +0100, Andy Wade wrote:

I'm curious has to how the new regulations on the sale of products with Hg in are going to affect flourescent lamps. They basically say no product can contain any Hg at all...
--
Cheers snipped-for-privacy@howhill.com
Dave. pam is missing e-mail
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
Dave Liquorice wrote:

The UK implementation of RoHS is in SI 2006 no. 1463, here: http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2006/20061463.htm.
Fluorescent (and other) lamps are covered by specific exemptions, viz.:
<quote> Exempt applications
1. Mercury in compact fluorescent lamps not exceeding 5 mg per lamp.
2. Mercury in straight fluorescent lamps for general purposes not exceeding (a) 10 mg for halophosphate lamps, (b) 5mg for triphosphate lamps with normal lifetime, and (c) 8 mg for triphosphate lamps with long lifetime.
3. Mercury in straight fluorescent lamps for special purposes.
4. Mercury in other lamps not specifically mentioned in this schedule. </quote>
Otherwise the Hg concentration limit is 0.1% by weight rather than zero. For Cd the limit is 0.01%
As to a future "total Hg ban", I think that only affects non-electrical uses, but at least barometers seem to have a reprieve: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/expert/infopress_page/064-8949-190-07-28-911-20070706IPR08897-09-07-2007-2007-false/default_en.htm
--
Andy

Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 10:09:57 +0100, Andy Wade wrote:

I thought they would be, the last I heard on this was on a news media site so accuracy and detail where a little thin.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/expert/infopress_page/064-8949-190-07-2 8-911-20070706IPR08897-09-07-2007-2007-false/default_en.htm
Only until late 2009. I'm intrigued as to what the EU think can be used to replace Hg in a barometer.
--
Cheers snipped-for-privacy@howhill.com
Dave. pam is missing e-mail
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 03/08/2007 21:44, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Water will work, but the barometer will be "slightly" longer, about 400" instead of 30"
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sat, 04 Aug 2007 20:58:41 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

I know that but 32' or there abouts is not very practical to hang on the hall wall. 32' is roughly the ridge line on a two storey house with a pitched roof...
--
Cheers snipped-for-privacy@howhill.com
Dave. pam is missing e-mail
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
contained the following:

Umm, not really practical. The idea is to create a vacuum at the top of the column of liquid. However, water boils at room temperature in a vacuum.
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 05/08/2007 00:57, Geoff Berrow wrote:

I think you may have missed my humorous quotation marks ...
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Sun, 05 Aug 2007 00:57:57 +0100, Geoff Berrow wrote:

No, you can make a barometer using water. The space at the top is not a vacuum, water (or Hg) does vaporise into the space.
Remember it is not the vacuum "sucking up" the column of fluid but the air pressure pushing it up from the bottom, until force from the weight of the fluid column equals that of the force from the air pressure. This is why the column height varies with the air pressure.
--
Cheers snipped-for-privacy@howhill.com
Dave. pam is missing e-mail
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

Polonium 210?
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

3mg is more typical now, in any case. This means there's 1000 times more mercury in the average human body than there is in one CFL (i.e. about 3g per person when cremated, mostly from dental fillings).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 02 Aug 2007 20:17:25 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

I bet that is falling. How many young(*) people have a mouthful, as >75% of all molars and premolars filled, these days?
(*) By young I mean <30 years old.
--
Cheers snipped-for-privacy@howhill.com
Dave. pam is missing e-mail
  Click to see the full signature.
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On 02 Aug 2007 20:17:25 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

But for some strange reason the regs permit in excess of 5 for some tube/phosphor combinations.

In a different physical form Where the Hg is sequestered away in an alloy of copper, tin, silver and zinc. etc ...
But, yes, crems are scary places, I try to keep away from them, If the Mercury doesn't get you the Dioxins will.

Remembering how easily zinc is leached out of brassware, I can't say I'm happy about this. I do believe there is a history of Mercury poisoning in dental assistants who mixed up the ingredients for Mercury amalgam fillings, in the days when it was done manually.
http://www.newstarget.com/016544.html
Mercury Fast Facts:
Mercury is the most toxic non-radioactive element on earth.
A silver-colored mercury amalgam filling normally contains 52 percent mercury.
On average, amalgam fillings weigh 1 gram and contain gram of mercury.
The typical adult carries 10 amalgam fillings containing 5 grams of mercury.
Half a gram of mercury in a 10-acre lake would warrant issuance of a fish advisory for the lake.
So : A page possibly written by fruitcakes -but still no gross inaccuracies AFAICS...
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/1/95
We report the case of a 38-year-old man who was exposed to toxic levels of inorganic mercury. METHOD. Four years after exposure, the patient was assessed using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI), single- photon emission computerised tomography (SPECT) and detailed neuropsychological evaluation. RESULTS. The patient developed a myriad of physical and psychiatric complaints, including stomatitis, muscle spasm, tremor, skin rash and the psychiatric syndrome known as 'erythism' (Mad Hatter's disease). Neuropsychological evaluation revealed marked and significant deficits of attention concentration...
<Snip stuff dealt with elsewhere>
Oh, and let us not forget about Minamata disease ...
DG
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 07:46:59 +0100, Andy Wade

You are correct, I got that wrong, 5gm as opposed to 5mg, I didn't query it because I have seen balls of free liquid mercury way above milligram levels rolling around inside fluorescent tubes, also I was taught to use the avoirdupois sytem of weighing at school and have no immediate / intuitive feel for how much a gram actually is.
Not that the amount is mentioned on the packaging anyway, no hazard warnings, no materials safety data sheet, no clean up instructions, no instructions as to what to do if you break one and cut yourself on the broken glass contaminating the wound with Hg and the phosphor. AIUI even 5mg of Hg is enough to pollute 30,000 litres of drinking water.
In the USA one poor woman broke a CFL in a bedroom and was silly enough to phone the City Hall for advice, They couldn't give her any advice, instead they sent an inspector who insisted the whole bedroom was disposed of as toxic waste. 8-((

And it's higher than 5mg for some tubes.

So they say ...
Firstly CFLs do not give the amount of light their proponents say they do, so all bets are off. They give about 25 -30% less when brand new and that will have gone down by about *another* 48% after 12 months service. To get the same light on average over 2 years would need 3x as many lamps. They are crap to start with and then they tail off.
Secondly they don't last 5years / 8years / 20 years either, the Hg gets adsorbed into the internal surfaces and is no longer available to contribute to the discharge, also starting around 18 months service the tube ends blacken and (uniquely to CFLs) the phosphor gets scoured off the bends in the tubes, that's if the electronics hasn't already given out. 9 - 18 months is nearer the mark so even more CFLs (hence more Hg) would be needed to get the same light output as GLS filament lamps replaced continually as they fail.
Thirdly, The pollution arising from firing a power station (hopefully!) is controlled so that it is dispersed high in the atmosphere and won't pollute any single location to any dangerous extent whereas as few as 500 fluorescent lamps per year would require a site (a large school for example) to register with the Environment Agency as a producer of hazardous waste.

Same again, same bezzled figures, same graphics, based on a light output for CFLs which cannot be achieved when brand new let alone maintained for 5 / 8 / 20 years afterwards.
HTH.
DG
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload
On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 01:29:00 +0100, Derek Geldard
<snip>

In the day to day world though, I wonder how many punters know what light they expect off what bulb and just experiment with them till they get the right light levels? Like we put a 15W (or similar) CFL in the hall dusk-till-dawn fitting and then replaced it with an 8W as it was way too bright. Even the 8W is a bit bright.

Erm, some can. I generally write the date on the CFL when I install it and the last one I replaced had been in there for ~7 years? It is on a time switch so is on ~6pm to 1am, every day. I'm not suggesting they all last that long of course, same with anything you get good and bad ones and what-you-pay-for.
I built the garage some 15 years ago and fitted it with 6 flouro's. They are on at least 4 times a week and I've not changed one yet (and still have more than enough light).
There are only a few fittings here that won't take CFL's easily and they are the ones where I am 'constantly' (in comparison to the CFL's anyway) having to change them.
I have no problems with the light they produce either because in my world they are for illumination not 'style' or 'effect', none of this 'mood' stuff and 100 mini spots that regularly trip the power (like round my mates place)! ;-(
Incidentally, what efficiency do incandescent's typically run at?
I take your point on the potential pollution issues though.
All the best ..
T i m
Add pictures here
<% if( /^image/.test(type) ){ %>
<% } %>
<%-name%>
Add image file
Upload

HomeOwnersHub.com is a website for homeowners and building and maintenance pros. It is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.