Boiler probs

You said that the bathroom and kitchen etc. were original. Everybody, apart from you would spend the money on replacing those first.

That's a separate topic entirely and doesn't detract from the fact that the heat loss is greater through the walls than the roof. In an earlier thread we already demonstrated that in the overall context of the house going for ridiculously large amounts of loft insulation is pointless.

That's what I said.

there's a surprise...

You put it in your ears??

.andy

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That wasn't it. I meant well intentioned DIY jobs where people have stuffed insulation into the eaves and the timbers are soaking with condensation.

That is not what I said either. I certainly think that the spray on foam technique and its purveyors are questionnable because it is marketed as a means of holding the roof material on rather than repairing it properly. Since the timbers are then covered up, it makes survey inspection impossible. I would walk away from any property that had had this done.

I'm all for doing proper energy management and insulation, but the notion of putting ever increasing amounts of insulation in lofts and ignoring the walls is ridiculous; especially in existing properties.

The law of diminishing returns is important here.

Adding insulation to a wall cavity takes the U value from 1.5 to 0.5 which is highly significant. Adding insulation in a loft to take the U value from 0.2 to 0.1, especially when the areas are considered is of very little value in comparison,

.andy

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Yes? That is not ramshackle. They could have replaced the old Belfast sink with another identical one 10 years ago, same with taps. They sold have replaced the elecrical sytem and still had one single socket in each room. Eveything as per original spec'.

I viewed one just like this the last time I was house hunting. A flahback in time. The owner bought it new. A one owner house.

Would they? Ask our estate agent man on the list. Have a look around at some house and see the state of the bathrooms.

It is not at all !!

Shocked eh!

Yes integrated ear muffs. I am now going to patent this idea. Off the patent office...where's me coat.

That is very different to spay on cellulous.

What strange logic!

A normal house is split into two halves a top half and a bottom half. In then top half, insulating the loft to the best you get using cellulous insulation is well worth it. Say 300mm. the Centre of Alternative Technology say 350mm is the optimum, their book, The Whole House Book covers this. So in the top half of a house their is a highly significant ceiling area that can be easily and cheaply insulated via the loft. My loft is well insulated and even recently in -2 temps, most of the time the TRVs were fully off. In winter it is nice and snug in the upper rooms and in summer nice and cool. A win, win situation.

Looking at the whole house when assessing insulation levels is very misleading. Loft insulation is easy and cheap and can be DIYed, unlike say cavity wall insulation. Do you understand it better now? I doubt it.

If it hides the roof structure so that it can't be inspected then that is not a good idea.

Just simple physics of heat transmission and economics.

You can use alternative technology if you like. I prefer to stick to with the economics and proven technology.

Likewise, and with only 150mm of insulation. The difference between

There's nothing to understand. You can bluster and alter the rules as you go along as much as you like, but it doesn't alter basic physics.

.andy

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Sorry Andy, I missed that.

Its no use talking 'diminishing returns' and 'cost benefit analysis' with IMM. They aren't in the Bumper Book of How Things Work

Andy has that edition under his pillow each night.

Look at, which you need to look at:

No strange logic.

How British! How 19th century! Read the book!! Don't guess as usual. All is there. If our snotty uni man had read it first he wouldn't have a Heath Robinson house with a screwed up heating system.

It is. BTW, 300mm of cellulous insulation is equivalent to near 400mm of mineral insulation.

Nonsense. Read "EcoHouse - A Design Guide". They say there is NO upper level in insulation. As fuel gets more expensive, global warming takes hold, with hotter summers (insulation keeps a house cool) and colder winters, superinsulation is cost effective, and much sooner than you think. And our resident estate agent will then understand the issues and sell accordingly.

There is and you don't understand it.

You were on about economics!!! Physics? No one is questioning that insulation keeps heat in, in winter, and heat out in summer.

Ah, you mean cellulose......

Did you build the web site as well? I notice that whoever did can't spell 'separate'.....

They would do wouldn't they. This is all based on dogmatic idealism and has nothing to do with the real world.

I am sure that Richard sells what people will buy.

If you believe that what you are saying is a saleable proposition to the average buyer then why not set up in business as an eco-estate agent? You could spend time educating the great British public on these matters, convincing sellers to superinsulate their houses and buyers to pay more for them. I would be interested to see whether you would still be in business after a few months. I rather doubt it, because I don't believe that people see the value in or are experiencing the pain of what you are trying to sell. Until either or both of those happen this remains a theoretical exercise.

If you add the notion of applied physics and engineering then you apply the technology where it is economically sensible.

.andy

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I can spull sepirate.

It is not. It is based on real technology proven in the field.

When it happens he will, and much sooner than you think.

Good idea. One problem. Most of the UK housing stock is far too old, with most of it deserving the bulldozer. There are too few eco houses around to make a living I'm sure. Come back in 10 years time and I'm sure Richard will have an eco homes section.

I should, but greater authorities than me are already doing this. The people are eco aware and are getting better at it. They realise the value of double glazing and insulation in the loft. Many are aware of the value of condensing boilers and when a Minimum SEDBUK of 86% is out, they will be fully aware.

.. snd is called 'alternative technology'. Generally this is a label used for things that are academically interesting but not commercially viable.

Oh, I think that it will happen relatively soon but as a result of political tinkering, not because of scientific or economic reasons.

The existing housing stock is an economic reality, and there is no politically acceptable way of changing that situation at any great speed.

He might well, but that's 10 years away.

I think that that is stretching it. The government is having to legislate new standards in order to be seen to be doing something towards meeting the Kyoto political targets.

There's nothing wrong with the principle of reduced CO2 emission and similar factors, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that any of this is anything other than politically motivated.

They realise about double glazing because the DG firms plant people in the entrances of DIY sheds and supermarkets and canvas door to door.

Some people are clearly aware of the technology, but obviously not enough or the proportion of sales would be higher. I agree that condensing boiler technology is desirable, but it should be sold on economic arguments (which it can be), not via legislation.

The current government has grossly overlegislated to the point that many people are of the opinion that when something is it is because it is not in their best interest.

.andy

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"IMM" wrote in news:brccbf$jmn$ snipped-for-privacy@news7.svr.pol.co.uk:

Quite a number might think that you have it between your ears. :-)

Rod

When CAT was setup in about 1973ish, they added the term "Alternative", which is now mainstream. In the 1980s the "alternative " comedians are now mainstream. British mainstream construction technology is outdated to Scandinavia and North America. The most inventive nation in history is Britain. Yet tell me one major innovation the British have added to construction over the past 50 years? err, err, errr? Keep thinking.

We are stuck in the past. Yet there are beacons of hope in the likes of CAT in Wales and BedZed in Surrey.

You mean Two Jags laying it on the line to the 19th century minded rip-off construction industry? Great man. Takes no crap! What we need. He is not impressed by some Oxbridge parasite giving a presentation on behalf of the construction industry. Cuts no ice with the man.

Yes forced by the 1947 Town & Country Planning act, to keep the super rich, rich, and the rest of us in cardboard boxes.

Two Jags has the right idea. Change or I will force you too. New Labour is in for a generation at least, so Two Jags will around if they take the piss. They better not with him around. The useless rip off construction industry is preying for him to go. My vote next time around goes to NL.

That is when it will probably mature. It is on the way there. The simple fact you heavily insulated your house indicated that.

It is not.

What you mean is that you want greater government action. So do we all.

Yes to reduce it. Duh!

So they realise it then. Duh!

You are foolish. Look at the UK construction industry. Way behind the best in the west. Way behind. Because it is so behind the government, with Two Jags, has to lay it on the line to them, to get heir act in order or else. That is shameful that the government has to step in to drag an industry forwards 60 years.

NO government wants to interfere with industry, unless it is not doing its job right.

LOL. You are so funny. And a name like Rod too.

I've looked at houses in both Scandinavia and the U.S. They are not

I wouldn't use the word 'hope', but rather ideas that may one day be economically interesting.

He may be what you need if he takes no crap.

I'm not getting into that silly nonsense again.

Hopefully not..

You're moving to Holland? When?

I didn't. It was already done to a sensible standard.

No I don't. I would prefer greater government inaction by their being less government.

Through it being rammed down their throats, not for any economic, scientific or altruistic reason.

That depends on your definition of best. I travel extensively and do look at houses and construction on occasions. There are different methods and materials but these appear to be much more based on availability and tradition than one being better than or more advanced than another.

As in legislating around electrical safety when there is no issue that requires tackling for example?

.andy

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That is entirely irrelevant. We went down this route some time ago, and when I pointed out to you the necessaity of breathing, you retorted that even more expensive technology would be able to warm up the incoming air requied for ventilation using nothing more than the power of your farts as I recall.

There is no upper limit to insulation. There is an upper limit to the

Ah., Right. So instead of maybe adapting or living in these slighltly energy inefficient homes, we are goind to pourt diesle into bulldoszer to knock em down, then pouyr gas into power statins to profdoduce the energy efficient materials to build new ones with!

It all makes sense! By the time we have replaced em all we will all be broke and the world will be so warm we will need the insulation to stay cool!

DO look up cots benefit anaylis, and star applying it to things like Co2 production, theres a dear chap...No? To hard for you? Go back to knee jerk silly eco-leftist thinking then. But shut up first.

No, they are as usual being fed a load of half truths and downright codswallop by the medai and the politicians, not to menyion GrreenPiss and Frankly Outright EEjuts.

Gosh. Will they? The major benefit of DG is that is stops draughts. Its about time they DID the energy calcs an realised that DG is a complete con, and what they actually need is cavity wall insulation..and underfloor insulation.

I agree, when it comes to something as improbable as £500 on/off the bills (which if it were true would be an enourmous dwelling anyway - where 7.5k would be lost in the noise on the price of 1.n million round here.) And 7.5k might be the sort of capital outlay required to acheive a £500 a year saving in _that_ sort of home.

With management charges and buy-to-let purchasers a degree of hard reckoning comes into play on prices.

The above post is IMHO unecesarily abusive. I'm sure that RF has an extremely good idea of what really is important to buyers and sellers of houses. I suspect that the precise details of how the house is heated and how energy efficient it is might make a low 30th on the wish list (if that).

In message , Ed Sirett writes

Thank you for the support Ed.

I have been doing this for 16 years, sell between 100 & 150 houses per year, and have actually educated one, or two, local developers/speculators into providing what people will pay the most money for, without resistance. Some still think they know best.

New Contemporary Kitchen White bathroom suite with shower and nice simple tiling Stripped wooden floors, or reasonable quality carpet (£10 per yd fitted) Nice newly decorated in plain pastel shades internal. Paint as appropriate outside. Cast iron Fireplaces Retain original windows where possible. Replace with White UPVC if not. New C/H only if not already fitted. New boiler if appropriate. Damp proof course and timbers guarantee Simple landscaping of gardens - gravel, railway sleepers, few shrubs, window boxes, hanging baskets Overhaul roof. provide schedules of work & guarantees for work done as appropriate.

Dont bother with the extra expense of insulation, condensing boilers etc.

All to do with presentation.

Buyers attach little, or no, value to potential savings on energy bills, and have a tendency not to believe any claims, even if true.

These are all factual recommendations for my local area, modified over the years as tastes and demands change. people who do not take my advice do not make as much money, or sell as quickly, as those who do.