B+Q bathrooms - again.

[PM]

Plus that will annoy Dave's Wiltshire counterpart.

[John Rumm]

I would fully expect him to place a markup on the parts. There has to be some reward for the advancing of credit, the time spent on procurement and ordering, and reward for the additional risk he is taking. Not only that there is further opportunity for him to benefit from sound management of his business by negotiating discounts on parts from regular suppliers.

[Tanner-'op]

Dave,

If you run the business 'properly' then 'supply and fix' is the norm. If you go for a meal in a restaurant, do you take your own, uncooked food in and then ask the chef to cook it based on his hourly rate? If you did, it would be you in the cooking pot!

And think of the profit aftermarket car component suppliers are making on

*every* part!

Lesson begineth:

In business, the 'tradesman' negotiates a cut-price rate with his suppliers of around 10 - 40%, they will also arrange an extra discount for a prompt settlement of the suppliers monthly invoice to the tradesman of around 5 -

10% but the tradesman will then pass supply the materials to the customer at the 'full'price and possibly even adding a further 10 - 20% for overheads.

Now, if the tradesman wants to look good in the customers eyes (or just to get the job), he now has enough leeway to offer a 'discount' to the customer and still make a profit - without having to cut his labour charge - and that's how the system works and it certainly did in my last job.

Lesson endeth - patronising though it may sound.

By the way, going back to my analogy of your meal - if you have a meal in a pub, the *profit* margin there is at least 60% on *every* meal and the same goes for the top-notch restaurants!

Tanner-'op

[The Medway Handyman]

"Who'd have thought thirty year ago we'd all be sittin' here drinking Château de Chasselas, eh? ".

Things have changed in the past 40 years. The public have access to thousands of products via the internet, TV ads, press ads, the 300+ B&Q stores, the 300 odd Homebase stores, 100+ Screwfix depots etc

None of these things excisted 40 years ago. You had to go to a builders merchant & speak to a bloke in a brown coat & a flat cap & ask for "Fork Handles".

The days of the 40% discount for the tradesman are, with a few exceptions like Howdens by and large gone. The public can now buy as cheaply as a tradesman. If you were in touch with the market you would realise that most of the public prefer to choose & purchase their own bathrooms, kitchens, lighting etc and then get someone in to fit it.

[Andy Hall]

He may well be.

It really depends on the value to the customer of having the project management and one place of responsibility.

[Rod]

This approach cannot be universal - for some things it makes sense, for others not.

If I want a painting on my wall, I am not going to get a workman to supply and fit. I might get a person to fit it (i.e. hang it on the wall) and he might supply a hook and a wall plug. Indeed, it would be unusual for the customer to supply the hook unless it was some unusual fitting.

The first time I dealt with a serious building job, the contract specified what mark up the builder could apply. (It was based on a standard form of contract from RICS or some similar organisation.) And I was happy for that to be applied. The approach of getting a cut-price from your supplier, charge a full-price plus extra markup to the customer would not be appreciated by me. (I accept that you would get a reasonable prompt payment discount.) Especially now that it is so easy for customers to see what the amrket prices are for many goods.

It is (maybe 'was' these days?) traditional in some fishing locations for the kitchen to cook the fish caught by the punters. So 'fit only'

*can* apply even in catering.

[Mark]

The mark-up is also a tradesman's insurance If X that I have supplied and fitted fails I have to go back and replace it for free. If you have supplied X then I would expect payment to remove faulty item for you, and then paying again to replace the replacement. :)

-

[Arfa Daily]

This is true. The builder's merchants are small fry compared to the big chains like B&Q, so it's a case of economy of scale with the quantities that the chains can buy from the manufacturers, or indeed have custom manufactured. The same applies with trade cash and carry depots for catering. My wife can actually buy packs of Coca Cola cheaper in Tesco at their retail price, than she can buy them from the cash and carry that's supposed to be her trade rate supplier. I bought some electrical fittings in B&Q tonight, and they were half the price of a 'proper' trade electrical warehouse.

Arfa

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Fine. You pay that if you want. It's a reason why I DIY. The supplier is already making one profit - I don't expect to give a plumber his cut on top. Plus the fact that I'd want to choose what is fitted - not just what he finds easy.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Absolutely. Very few these days go to a tradesman and say 'install a new bathroom for me please'. Most will want far more input than that.

[Frank Erskine]

I'd much rather leave it to the installer to supply the items (as long as they're the ones that I specify). That's what I did a few years ago for the bathroom. That way, the responsibility of actually getting the bits 'n' pieces, including all the sundries, in a timely manner is on the same guy/firm, then it's up to him to get the whole installation done and working properly.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Project management now, eh? You ever met a plumber?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Do you go into a restaurant and take what they give you without choice? That is the same as letting a plumber choose everything for you.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

So you mark up goods by 50%? And are still in business?

Fine. Most plumbers already charge a more than adequate hourly rate - adding on a profit from goods supplied shows just why only Polish ones get any work these days.

Don't be so fooking stupid. A restaurant supplies much more than just the cost of the food and the labour to cook it. Indeed with an upmarket one this will be the least of their costs.

[The Medway Handyman]

Agreed. Some customers just want you to get everything sorted for them & don't mind paying a premium. IME the larger part of the market want 'fit only'. In which case I try to steer them in the direction of a competant supplier

[Derek Geldard]

That made oi larf ...

Derek

[Andy Hall]

Oh definitely.

Project management can range from the sophisticated down to the simple one of sourcing specified goods and fitting them..

[The Medway Handyman]

Sensible on your part Frank agreed, but not on mine if the client specifies the items.

If I were asked to install "this B&Q bathroom" I would tell the customer OK, you buy it, I'll install it. That way if/when I found damaged/missing bits it isn't my problem & I can charge extra time for sorting it. I wouldn't accept the job on any other basis.

If I bought the specified B&Q bathroom myself & found damaged/missing bits (highly likely) then it would be my problem & cost to sort it out. I could easily end up out of pocket because B&Q are basically unreliable as a supplier. I would end up paying for B&Q's inadequate service - something out of my control.

The problem is that I can't put a margin on that B&Q bathroom because the customer knows exactly how much B&Q sell it for.

If a client asks me to supply & fit "a bathroom" I would qoute for & supply one obtained from my local independant because I can earn a margin on the supply as well as labour on the fix & know I won't have the damaged/missing bits problem.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Right. I project managed a 13 amp plug onto a cable today.

[dennis]

Typical trades person.. the jobs easier *and* I will screw them for more. Ever wonder why DIY is popular?