17th edition before new kitchen

I'm getting a new kitchen installed in the new year and have been told that before any electrical work is done the electrician will need to satisfy himself that my wiring etc meets the 17th edition. I can find nothing on the web to inform my ignorance and hope someone here can give me some idea what I can expect. My house is a 60's semi and I have had an extension built 18 years ago and substantial re wiring done at the time.
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It does not have to meet current regulations unless he is adding new circuits to it. If it is like for like, then you can keep it as is. If the earth bonding is not up to spec, then certainly get that fixed. I doubt you have got RCD protection, so it may be a good time to get it done anyway, but not compulsory, unless there are to be new sockets / circuits added.
Alan.
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On Dec 8, 8:52 pm, a...@darkroom.+.com (A.Lee) wrote:

memera 3 consumer unit with push buttons instead of fuses trips sometimes with a blown light bulb
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On 08/12/2010 21:02, curious wrote:

A common problem and not actually indicative of a fault. You could get the MCBs swapped for type C ones - that makes them a little more tolerant of the very short duration current surge that a bulb blowing can cause.
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John.

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That is probably not an option here. The Memara 3 is a fuse box not a CU and I believe the fuses have been swapped for MCBs in a similar way that the Wylex fuse boxes are modified.
ISTR that the MEM retro MCBs had a 1.5kA breaking capacity and I KNOW that they are prone to overheating due to poor blade connections
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Only the new or modified circuits need to meet the 17th edition
The rest of the house wiring can stay as it is.

Indeed, that will need to be done as electrical work is taking place.

That would be a close call regarding the RCD protection. The 16th edition came into force in 1992 and required some RCD protection even then.
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wrote:

What does that mean in practice? Presumably that's going to push a CU change as well, so as to support the kitchen circuits? Will that then impact the rest of the house, or does a new CU not require the circuits to brought up to the 17th? Does it hit the horror of dealing with lighting circuits with no CPC? ('60s build, I'm guessing there might not be any)
Would a legitimate dodge be to fit a new CU, but leave the old fusebox in situ and still feeding the old circuits?
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Adam has the link for the pdf about non-cpc lighting. Basically, you can change the CU for a new RCD protected one, without CPC on the lighting, but, all fittings on those circuits must be plastic.

That is what I intend to do in a couple of weeks time - I have a kitchen job on that will require a few extra sockets and a feed to a cooker. The existing wiring is in not too bad condition, but has a rewirable fusebox, so not suitable for new circuits. I'll be fitting a new consumer, but with only 2 MCBs for the new circuits. In time, the whole lot will be migrated over to the new board, but because of time and money constraints, the house owner doesnt want it doing now.
Alan.
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On Dec 9, 7:18 am, a...@darkroom.+.com (A.Lee) wrote:

Paper copy of that has been on my desk for weeks. We're currently in the transitional two-CUs and a Henley block state too, while I work on the rest. I want the non-CPC lighting out most of all, because that's also the worst of the perishing rubber. Paper best practice docs and work that gets accepted don't always match though.
I've also heard an increasing number of stories (locally, and other towns) about under-worked sparks selling people the "You'll need a whole rewire if I change that" story. One's an elderly couple a few doors up - classic recession rip-off story, fortunately halted now.
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To quote...
"The Best Practice Guide fully recognises that unearthed lighting circuits do not comply with BS7671. In all cases, the initial approach should be to persuade the customer that protective conductors should be provided."
Then amusingly goes on to say...
"There is no legal requirement, and no regulation in BS 7671, requiring an existing electrical installation to be upgraded to current standards. However, there is a requirement under the BR ... to leave the installation and building no worse in terms of level of compliance with other applicable parts of Schedule 1 to the BR than before the work was undertaken."
A kitchen replacement can trigger a lot of work. Kitchen is on the downstairs lighting circuit with no CPC, adding a single light requires either 4mm 6491X adding or often more simply the kitchen breaking off the rest of the house and a new dedicated kitchen lighting circuit fitting (quick n simple). The kitchen fitters simply design in an extra light knowing full well it triggers a lot more work. Same goes with number of kitchen cupboards, often there is per-cupboard commission and soon after a per cupboard angle grinder when someone is fed up "wearing cupboards as headphones".
Frankly the best money spent is on insulation if it is a cold damp lean-to solid brick kitchen. Ekoboard is extruded polystyrene without any cement either side, you bond it with Mapei Keraflex (flexible cement) to brickwork, available 6-60mm and it will transform a kitchen (and often the rest of the house as cold air travels). Alternatively marmox can be used but it is somewhat more expensive although a stronger construction board. If the kitchen is dry you can just 50mm celotex the walls, then batten over creating a gap for services and battens to cross-batten and screw cupboards to. Marmox & Ekoboard are rot-proof and water can not travel, no interstitial condensation, however all wiring must be moved into conduit, flexible 16mm conduit can be useful for existing wandering wiring or just move the stuff into zone under Part P "maintenance" which is permitted even in a kitchen.
Then ensure the cooker hood is ducting outside not recirculating. If a direct path core drill to 152mm then sleeve down to 127mm or 107-102mm with expanding foam infill. That way you can upgrade the extractor - 4" is getting a bit small and many more modern cooker hoods use 5". BES do outside vents in 5" and 6" which have the same outer "square hole and fixing holes". So easy to fit 5", then a future cooker hood comes with 6" and you just poke out the foam around the smaller tube, remove it and fit the 6" louvre vent etc.
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On 09/12/2010 01:53, Andy Dingley wrote:

That's precisely what we did when we converted an integral garage into a kitchen last year. The electrics are split after the meter using a Henley Block (or whatever) with one output going to a new 17th edition compliant CU just for the kitchen, and the other going to the original CU which continues to serve the rest of the house.
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Roger
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As Alan pointed out you can keep lighting circuit with no CPC provided the fittings and switches are class II. http://esc.org.uk/pdfs/business-and-community/electrical-industry/BPG1v2_web.pdf
But changing a CU basically means that all the circuits will need to meet the 17th edition. http://esc.org.uk/pdfs/business-and-community/electrical-industry/BPG6_09.pdf has a flowchart explaining how it is done. The biggest problems are borrowed neutrals and low resistance readings IMHO.

Yes, but I would not call it a bodge adding a new CU and leaving the old circuits in place and untouched. I would certainly make the customer aware of any dangers on the existing circuits where possible. Don't forget that the installation certificate has a section to fill in where you comment on the existing circuits condition. That section covers your back if they later plug the hedge cutters into an existing non RCD protected socket, cut through the cable and receive a 230V shock.
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Adam



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On 08/12/10 20:45, curious wrote:

best to get the wiring uptodate before fitting a new kitchen and decorating, You'll probably want a lot more sockets than are there now, and more lights, extractors, etc
LED downlighters ae cool ,halogen hot and a fire risk.
This is a book worth getting:
(Amazon.com product link shortened)91844315&sr=1-1
IEE On-site Guide; BS 7671 : 2008 IEE Wiring Regulations 17th Edition [Spiral-bound]
[g]
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On 08/12/10 21:40, george [dicegeorge] wrote:

And consider improving the floor and walls insulation? [g]
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On 08/12/2010 20:45, curious wrote:

Find a new electrician then... there is no requirement for your existing wiring to meet the 17th edition, only the new wiring that he installs.

Generally if doing new work, then the only change that he might sensibly need to make it to ensure that the main equipotential bonding is to an adequate standard, and that RCD protection can be provided for the new wiring as required.
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Cheers,

John.

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I'd read this as a warning from the kitchen fitter, not a spark.
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On 09/12/2010 01:54, Andy Dingley wrote:

yup could be... possibly preparing the householder for a quick stitchup from the fitters tame sparks!
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John.

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