Two simple questions that came up when mounting tires at home

[rbowman]

That's how you take it apart. The spring, plunger, and seal have to get in there somehow.

[Arlen G. Holder]

Two minor questions that came up today when I was showing an inquisitive teen how to mount & balance his own tires for the car he recently got for free from a neighbor.

1. The teen asked me why this slit in the typical air chuck...
2. The kid asked me what the practical difference was between choosing between two air valves, one for up to 65 psi and the other up to 80 psi for a typical 30 to 40psi nominal economy car tire such as his are:

In both cases, I told the kid that I don't know the answers and that I'd ask folks on this newsgroup who know more than I do about such things, so I'll point the kid to this thread, when/if reasonable answers ensue.

I did hazard a guess that I suspect the slit in the chuck is perhaps to "let air out", although I'm not sure why we'd want to do that except, I guess, if we use the chuck as the air-release mechanism (similar to the "nib" on the back of a typical pencil-type air pressure gauge).

Likewise, I told him that it doesn't seem to matter all that much which pressure valve we use for his passenger car tires, AFAIK, where I like the brass valve, which happens to handle higher pressure, but I didn't see that it mattered for a passenger car, particularly since they were both essentially the same price.

One happens to be a "bolt in" type while the other is "snap in", but I didn't see that as a practical difference - do you, and one was slightly shorter but only because O'Reillys didn't have the same lengths in stock for the two types.

The specs on the back of the O'Reillys packages are:

XtraSeal 15-4600 Tire Valves 1-1/4" HP 0.453" TR600HP o Max cold inflation pressure is 80 psi o Rim thickness not to exceed 0.205" (5.2mm)

XtraSeal 15-4142 Tire Valves 1-1/2" HP 0.453" TR414 o Max cold inflation pressure is 65 psi o Rim thickness not to exceed 0.156" (3.96mm)

[Ed Pawlowski]

The slot is just like a slot in the head of a screw. It is used for assembly, disassembly

The valve stem is for different rims. Typically truck rims are thicker and heavier and tires have higher pressure.

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi rbowman,

<slaps head!> That makes a LOT of sense!

o Here's what my old chuck looks like, with the slotted "head" taken apart.

It's only two pieces (3 in total, including the body). o I had never noticed that slot before as I've never needed to take it apart.

Thanks!

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi Clare,

Thanks for the advice that the high-pressure valve "may" leak.

To be clear, certainly I fully _understood_ that if it was a high pressure tire (like a truck tire), that higher-pressure tire with thicker rims would _require_ the high-pressure valve, which handles both higher pressure and thicker rims.

... but ... (see next section) ...

Since both would fit, the question was what the practical difference would be in a passenger rim with passenger-tire pressures, which clearly the lower-pressure valve and the higher pressure valve would "fit" ... (where you answered that question by saying it "might leak" if the high pressure "truck" valve was used in a low-pressure passenger tire situation simply because the rim thickness is thinner than the max.

The mere fact the rim thickness is thinner than the max, in and of itself, doesn't negate either tire valves, where I defer to your experience since I've used both in the past on passenger car steel & alloy rims and haven't had a leak at the valve yet.

Clare, Of course I read and _completely_ understood what the package said. o The package gave a MAXIMUM rim thickness & a MAXIMUM pressure. o The package said nothing about a MINIMUM thickness & MINIMUM pressure.

That's why I asked the question, since clearly all the valves sold in that O'Rielly's had maximums well above what this car rim & tire specify.

They _all_ appear to be the "correct" parts, in terms of meeting the spec printed on the package, which is _only_ a maximum spec.

The minimum pressure & rim thickness spec isn't printed on the package.

The tire valve I _wanted_ didn't exist in the store, which was: o 1-1/2" long brass valve of 0.453" diameter & at least 60psi cold pressure fitting a rim of no more than 0.156" (3.96mm) thickness... Which is what I _usually_ buy.

I had to do these tires with what the store had on hand, which is why I bought both types, but where I put in the brass ones because I happen to like long bolt-in brass valves over rubber valves - for no real reason though - they just "seem" stronger.

Do you find, in your experience, that, all else being equal, that the brass bolt-in valves hold up any better or worse than do the rubber press-fit valves?

[Arlen G. Holder]

Thanks Ed,

Interestingly, there was no steel spring inside when I unscrewed the face.

There was just the screw-off face, the round body, and a "pin" that had a rubber grommet around it (which must act as the "spring").

What the package said was completely clear to me, which was only that it specified only a MAXIMUM thickness and pressure.

I was asking about the unspecified MIMIMUM thickness and pressure, which, I suppose, can only be garnered from experience.

In _my_ experience, admittedly only about 30-odd tires, I've used both types in passenger car tires with nary a leak - but Clare says the brass valve stem "might" leak in a thin rim, even though a minimum spec wasn't specified on the package.

I would have gotten what I normally get, which is 1-1/2 inch brass 0.453" diameter bolt in 60psi valves - but the store didn't have any and this was an emergency mount and balance.

To be clear, the ones I normally get have TWO diameters, because they come with two rubber grommets, one for 0.625" holes and the other grommet for

0.453" holes as shown in this photo from a prior mounting & balance:

Notice, for example, in this photo there are TWO grommets where only one is used, depending on how big the hole is:

Those are the valves I normally use - where in about 30-odd mounts, I haven't had a valve leak yet.

The question wasn't ever about the maximums, since _all_ the valves sold in that store had maximums well above this particular vehicle's spec - so - based on the spec - EVERY valve "fits".

The question was about the minimums, which are unstated on the package.

[Biff Tannen]

So many decisions!

See, this is why I take my car to Wally's Service Station and have Goober do my tires.  It's just easier.

[rbowman]

The last one I took apart was a Harbor Freight dual head that had a few more pieces. It wasn't curiosity I was trying to get it to work. The solution was buying a real one from NAPA.

The HF compressor is still functioning although I removed the regulator after it blew its guts out. The semi-engaged threads in the pot metal body were not salvageable. The hose and connectors in the accessory pack are functional.

I did find there are at least two styles of 1/4" male connectors. Of course, I bought the wrong style.

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi rbowman,

Thanks for that additional information, where I assume the "rubber grommet" is the "spring" in this ancient Sears chuck from, oh, it has to be from the

1970's when I first did major body work and painted a car which is why I bought that Sears 220VAC 20-gallan wheeled compressor in the first place.

The chuck doesn't work all that well lately, so I bought this new one to replace it, where when we were replacing the chuck, the kid asked the question, where I _encourage_ all intelligent people to not be afraid of asking questions so that they learn (as do I), from the answers from more knowledgeable people.

Hence I appreciate your experience that you relayed about HF tools.

My experience with HF is similar, in that there are 3 categories (IMHO): o Outright crap that isn't worth a penny (e.g., their 100' air hoses) o Stuff that's crap - but it's worth it (e.g., their tire mounting tools) o Stuff that's ok - so it's a good deal (e.g., tire irons & wheel weights)

Funny you mention the air compressor is still working, as mine is an ancient circa 1970's 220VAC 20 gallon Sears air compressor, which is still going strong (many hoses later).

My biggest problem is _finding_ air hoses that are good but not too expensive. If anyone has a good source for them, let us all know.

I bought the HF yellow plastic coiled hose for short distances, which sucked, as did the black rubber-coated reinforced vinyl 100' hose from HF.

That does drive me nuts that the quick connectors are of different styles, where I only need one, and it's "whatever I've got", which is, I don't remember, but which dates back to the 1970s when I first bought the air compressor.

We once went over the various styles, many years ago, on a.h.r, but I forget offhand what our conclusion was as to the "right" kind to get.

I just want the kind of connector that fits "whatever I've already got" although I _am_ interested in why they have the different types, where all these differences are great, but it still has to fit what I've already got.

[Arlen G. Holder]

[Clare Snyder]

The standard valve seats tightli in the hole, against the inner rim surface, and against the outer rim surface. The high pressure stem would "float" in the hole. It MAY not leak - but I sure wouldn't bet on it!!

You overthink EVERYTHING. If the high pressure stem was "the right one" for standard rims why the 7734 would they make 2 different stems

- particularly when they sell for the same price????

. Bolt in is a LOT less critical of rim thickness, and I do not believe they even make the 2 versions.

I install the bolt-in ones on my own vehicles. I guess that MAYBEE says something???

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi Clare, Thanks for that advice that the "shorter" (in height) the inevitable rubber grommet in the bolt-in type, the less change there might be of leakage.

I haven't mentioned this until now, but as an experiment, on the last set of tires I mounted & balanced at home, I temporarily switched grommets from the 0.453" to the 0.625" size to visually see what the difference might be.

It's hard to tell from that crappy picture, but the larger grommet clearly bulged outward, looking from the inside of the rim as that picture shows.

The end result, after match mounting, & during balancing, looks like this:

Hi Clare, What you're saying is to _assume_ the answer, which is fine, but where the spec is what I go by in almost all cases, where, unfortunately, only the MAXIMUM spec was written on the package.

Bearing in mind that the package I usually get has _both_ the 0.453" and

0.625" grommets, clearly _some_ of those valve stems are designed to fit both sized holes.

Of course, there's NOTHING on the package itself that says what the MINIMUM spec is, so, clearly, it has to be _assumed_ where I generally hate assuming things because of the natural tendency to assume whatever you _want_ the outcome to be.

BTW, at the store, I only had two choices:

1. Snap in - mostly rubber, or,
2. Snap in - mostly brass.

Of _those_ two, which would you prefer? (I like the all brass bolt-in type - but they weren't available.)

I'm a bit confused by what you said about not making the two versions since I clearly use the bolt in 1-1/2" dual 0.453"/0.625 size all the time so I am not sure what two versions you speak about.

I guess what you're implying is there is no "snap in" version for the thicker rims, which, if that's what you're saying , that makes sense.

As for the bolt in versus the snap in, thanks for your advice that the bolt in is less critical of rim widths.

I don't know why for sure, but I like the bolt-in types, but, I would assume the snap-in types "might" be more flexible when rubbing against curbs (where I size the length to be below the rim edges so that's less likely to happen unless it's an odd-sized rock outcrop - which we do get here in the mountains - but it's not often that a wheel rubs against them).

I use a straightedge as shown below to check that the valve is below flush, where I like the valve to be as long as possible, but below flush:

Thanks for stating that you like the bolt-in type, which is the kind I tend toward myself. Those bolt-in types just "seem" better, where about the only "difference" I can see offhand is twofold: a. They may be less flexible if rubbed against than the snap-in types b. They fit small & large rim holes, where I only need the 0.453" size

I guess a third difference is that, technically, they're removable, but I can't imagine re-using them except in some kind of dire emergency.

[rbowman]

I realize that there are criteria that result in different designs but the engineer in me is offended when the main criteria seems to being slightly different from the other company's design. I have a collection of oil filter cap wrenches, all of which are almost, but not quite, the same. Even if the filter itself is for the same applications the different manufacturers have to march to their own drummer.

[Arlen G. Holder]

There are people who like to learn and there are people who don't. o And that's OK.

For example, here's a picture of 3 of my chucks - do you have any advice for how to repair the oldest one, the one at the left, which, I _thought_ was simply missing a rubber grommet - but which seems to be missing a spring (although, I've never taken it apart)?

Only the brand new chuck, in the middle, has an actual spring.

Can you post a picture of the insides of your chucks, so we can compare?

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi rbowman,

I agree with you that simply having a different size for no good reason than to make it incompatible with others, is a marketing sham.

We should strive to not fall prey to those shams, where, I admit, I must have a dozen different oil filter wrenches myself, from the cap type to the strap type for my non-BMW vehicles (the bimmer has a different kind of oil filter setup).

I just snapped this picture of my disassembled chucks, where you'll note two things of related import. <

>

One is that only the middle (brand new) chuck even _has_ a spring, which may be why I'm unhappy with the oldest chuck from the 1970s's when I bought the compressor to paint my old Japanese sports car.

I have no idea where the spring went, where it's impossible that anyone else has ever had possession of the chuck - so - maybe - perhaps - decades ago - I may have taken it apart and somehow - perhaps - lost the spring?

I can't see the spring leaving on its own.

I could have sworn that I would have had the right sized spring in my box of things, but a look there found everything but the right sized springs. Since I take apart EVERYTHING that breaks, I am surprised I didn't save more of the springs - but alas - I'll have to buy some since I see now that the real problem with the chuck was that I didn't know how to repair it. (And I hate waste - where I feel too many people waste our earth's limited resources by throwing them out instead of fixing them.)

Anyway, the second thing is that the fittings I have on hand are from a batch I bought from HF on sale perhaps a year or two ago, where the red label says that they're "Industrial 1/4 inch Brass NPT M" fittings by a company named "Kobalt" with a SKU of "8 79686 00455 4"

A google search finds this:

I guess that means my fitting "type" is "Industrial", whatever that tells us.

Pretty much, that means I need to _only_ get "Industrial" fittings when I need new ones, where the old ones don't ever wear out - but they seem to hide with the socks.

[Clare Snyder]

Bolt in - yes. Pull-in rubber NO

You wouldn't catch medead installing the HP (mostly brass) stem in a standard steel automotive wheel, or the all rubber one in a HD truck rim. Different horses for different courses

They make 2 DIFFERENT snap in valve stems - one for thin rims (standard) and one for thick rims (high pressure). They only make one bolt-in - it works on standard and high pressure - and even both hole sizes.

No - you showed in your link the snap-in for thicker rims. The fact that they DO make separate snap-ins for the two thicknesses means something. The FACT that they do not need to make "separate" bolt-ins for the 2 thicknesses also says something.

What I take from this is there is a NEED for 2 different snap-in stems

- so you NEED to use the right one. There is NO NEED for "separate" bolt-ins - so they don't make them - and they can be used "universally"

The valve stem should NEVER protrude far enough to "catch" on anything. That's why they make something like 6 different lengths of "snap in" stems and at least as many "bolt in".

When I had 3 out of 4 rubber snap-in stems fail (crack and lose air) within a week of each othe (while on a cross-country trip) when less thana year old I decided to use bolt-ins from then on. The quality of the mostly chinese produced snap-in stems is questionable (at best, and to say the least)

The BIG advantage is they are metal, not some unknown "frankenrubber" that hardens and cracks from ultraviolet and ozone exposure. Yhe disadvantage is they might be some kind of Chinese "franken alloy" and corrode off in 6 months - - - - -

You mean re-installable. Even frankenrubber snap-ins are removeable

- but like bolt-ins they are likely to come out in 2 peices. Unlike frankenrubber, the 2 pieces CAN be re-assembled and re-used - at least theoretically.

[Clare Snyder]

The spring from the old one is inside 1 or more tires, most likely. The moisture in the airline rusted the spring away. Used to be, back when those chucks cast an hour or more's wages, you could buy rebuild kits for them. Now it's cheaper to replace with another chicrap chuck than to rebuild.

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi Clare,

THANKS for likely solving the mystery, which is most likely that the missing spring simply rusted away, over time, which is likely as that chuck has to be, oh, about 40 to 50 years old since I bought the compressor and air tools to paint a rusted out Datsun in the 70's after taking a welding class to learn how to weld on new rocker panels and after buying a sand blaster to remove the old paint.

Interestingly, I still have _all_ those old tools, most of which were from Sears in those days, where there's no way that air chuck has ever been out of my control in those fifty years and I never needed a new one until now.

I think, over time, it just stopped working well, which is an indication that you're fully correct that the spring merely rusted away in the last 10 or 20 years of those fifty years.

That _has_ to be what happened, where I _appreciate_ that you explained it!

THANKS!

[Arlen G. Holder]

Hi Clare, Thanks for that advice not to use those mostly brass plugin types, where I noticed that the "mostly brass" plugin type I bought have an "HP" designation (TR600HP) so I won't get those "high pressure" valves for car tires again. Thanks!

That leaves, for the plugin types in an automotive steel wheel just the plugin type that I also bought, which was the TR414.

Thanks for clearing up the confusion, where we then have these choices for steel standard wheels: o Plugin of the size for thin steel (non-truck) wheels, or, o Boltin of a size that fits both high & low pressure.

Thanks for clarifying as I hadn't realized there _was_ a snapin for the thicker rims (I thought it was only for the two diameters).

Interestingly, O'Reilly's doesn't seem to have the specific 0.453" diameter snapin tire valves online, but they have 7/16ths, which is close enough to be the same thing, only I'm not sure why the math isn't more reasonably close:

Thanks for the clarification, where, more and more, I'm gonna strongly consider buying, in bulk, the bolt-in type on the net and have a lifetime supply (which, for me, at my age, would only be another fifty or so).

Looking at Autozon'e selection, they don't even seem to sell them:

I agree.

Napa seems to have them here for $4 each:

I'm not sure the O'Reilly's price but I found it on my old package as part number Xtra Seal Tire Valve, 15-416, 1-1/2" long metal bolt -in which fits 7/16 and 5/8 inch holes ( UPC 639601541607).

Based on what you're saying, I'm gonna stick with the bolt ins from now on. I can order them from O'Reilly for about three or four bucks each.

I'll stick with the brass type - where I'm happy with O'Reilly but I notice I can get them online from plenty of places.

Yeah. I suspect we'd need a new grommet but other than that, I guess they're re-usable, but, who would bother for a four dollar part that if it fails, can cost you. Not me. When I do a tire, I do it right, or at least, as right as I know how to do it.

Thanks. Your advice helps cement my choice on the brass bolt-ins from now on!