Tool recommendation: Fastening to concrete block walls

Next phase of my project will involve a lot of fastening to concrete block walls.

Such as copper pipe straps, PVC pipe straps, rigid electrical conduit straps, furring strips, formwork for patching, and some miscellaneous Simpson's angles and brackets. Not a few, but hundreds.

I have a hammer drill, I can drill into the block wall, then use Tapcons for some of those, but it would be slow. I have seen some actuating tools that shoots a nail into the block wall and it's flushed with the surface. I don't know much about it and whether it is worth to buy a tool to do this? Any other tools that may fit the task at hand?

Thanks,

MC

Reply to
MiamiCuse
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The tools that shoot nails are great for attaching framing to concrete. Make sure you wear hearing protection because in a confined space they're loud. However, you can't remove the fastener without destroying the framing. Generally that's no problem.

If you plan on using that to fasten clips, clamps and straps for plumbing, electrical and other stuff I'm not sure I'd go that route. I don't know how easy it would be to hit the hole in the clip or whatever. Plus if you had to make a change later on it would be more difficult than removing a screw or two.

Reply to
Gordon Shumway

I have all these tools. Stay with the tapcons. A good SDS hammer drill and a battery impact gun to drive the Tapcons. Fast, accurate, good "bite" with the fasteners. PAT (powder actuated fasteners) are great and indispensable in some circumstances, but getting a consistent depth and locating the gun nail on the clip or whatever can be very problematic.

I do also like Nail-ins, see the bottom of this page:

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1/4" hole and a hammer. In hollow block make sure you have the right length - short.
Reply to
DanG

Look at Hilti. HD sells a single shot for cheap(?). The trick is the color code on the rounds. Each color is specific for the powder load.

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Cheaper than "hundreds" of Tap cons (use where needed)...

And wear ear muffs and eye protection.

Reply to
Oren

Your problem here is block walls, with solid concrete you have a lot of options and the powder actuated nailers (PAFT) work great, but with block walls you have to nail only on the solid sections or you can blow out the web and leave a big hole.

If you want to use a PAFT, rent a Hilti DX36M from 'Depot (I own one), among other features, the Hilti PAFTs are adjustable pressure so you can dial the pressure to a point in between two different color loads, something you can't do with the basic guns.

Reply to
Pete C.

MC-

With a decent rotary hammer (Milwaukee Falcon or small Hilti) drilling a hole & driving a Tapcon won't be all that bad. If you already have the tools it might be better to forgo the new tool.

Ramset makes some cool "hybrid fasteners".......powder driven pin with a specialty strap or clip pre-attached. Or you can shoot a pin with a threaded end (not sure if they come smaller than 1/4")

The pre-assembled hybrids would work for just about everything except copper straps.

Driving a powder actuated pin through a "separate" strap hole would make me a bit nervous.

cheers Bob

Reply to
DD_BobK

I always had problems with that small of a drill bit lasting more than 3-4 holes. On the last such job I dipped the bit in oil after every hole and the bit lasted the whole job.

Reply to
Michael Dobony

MC-

With a decent rotary hammer (Milwaukee Falcon or small Hilti) drilling a hole & driving a Tapcon won't be all that bad. If you already have the tools it might be better to forgo the new tool.

Ramset makes some cool "hybrid fasteners".......powder driven pin with a specialty strap or clip pre-attached. Or you can shoot a pin with a threaded end (not sure if they come smaller than 1/4")

The pre-assembled hybrids would work for just about everything except copper straps.

Driving a powder actuated pin through a "separate" strap hole would make me a bit nervous.

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Make sure the rotary hammer is about 5,000 bpm -- will go through cinder block like butter. I'm a big fan of the Bosch pistol-grip Bulldog -- SDS bits. But any 5,000 bpm tool should do. D-handle tools are a little clumsy for small holes, the pistol grip is a lot more convenient.

I agree with the reservations about a separate powder-actuated hole -- alignment and depth can be dicey. The threaded-end studs are neat, but I'll bet pretty expensive. I used to shoot those in iron columns!

Dipping a carbide bit in oil seems like a good idea! Water would work as well, if you could keep a flow going. Keep in mind that you can also sharpen those carbide bits very easily -- real quick on a green wheel, quick-enough on a gray wheel.

I would find out what would be ultimately cheaper -- a tapcon or a sheet metal screw and plastic anchor.

A separate rotary hammer and drill (for screwing) would make the job go quick, if installing hole-by-hole.

Reply to
Existential Angst

You must not have used a quality SDS hammer drill bit. I am very abusive to the bits - usually get several years out of them. This is true even with the Tapcon size lead bits in hard concrete. In block they will last forever. Quenching a hot carbide tip in water or oil is NOT a good idea.

Reply to
DanG

Yeah, "3-4 holes" to a "whole job" seems like quite a jump. But, presumably the oil would keep the tip cooler to begin with. But, thermal shock is a concern, so if proper immersion is not possible, mebbe best to just go dry. True in machining, as well -- a variety of cutting bits forego coolant for that very reason.

"Proper immersion" would be easiest in a vertical "down" hole -- hardest would be an overhead vertical hole.

And likely all moot in cinder block anyway.

Reply to
Existential Angst

What brand do you use? I have tried a large variety of brands and none of them held up. After about 3-4, maybe 5 holes the tip comes out red hot and melted.

Reply to
Michael Dobony

No, water will not give the same results. Oil tempers the bit and water destroys it. Machinist class.

White wheel, not grey. Again, machinist class.

Reply to
Michael Dobony

Qunch more frequently? Every half a hole? I may be all wet on this one (not sorry about the double meaning). But sometimes the answer needs some creative thinking.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

I quenched it in oil after every hole last time and I was able to complete the job, perhaps 100 or more holes, and the bit is still running. Read my earlier post.

Reply to
Michael Dobony

Read the posts? I can't do that. It's Usenet.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

My problem with Tapcon is it is always hit and miss for me. I use a regular corded hammer drill (which they provide in the screw box) to drill the hole at the proper depth, I do have a SDS rotary hammer but for just drilling holes I felt it's an overkill. I then use a cordless drill to drive the Tapcons in. Problems is I don't like to use the phillips head Tapcon, I have a hard time getting them to be perfectly flushed. Sometimes with Tapcon I drives them all the way in and they spin and not bite, and sometimes they just bite at 1/8" from the surface when I need them flushed. With furring strips I need them flushed. I have better luck with driving the hex head Tapcons but they won't be flushed.

I do agree with those who said using actuating tools on a strap hole may not be a good idea. Good point. I will use hex head Tapcons for those since they don't need to be flushed.

Any other ideas that would give good and quicker results without using two drills interchangeably? Cost is a concern but not a big one.

MC

Reply to
MiamiCuse

MiamiCuse wrote: ...

No problem, the point of the projectile sticks out the muzzle a fraction of an inch to locate the position, then you press against the surface firmly enough to release the trigger-locking mechanism and fire. For block you'll use a surface washer anyway to provide the backing. They work fine; just finished mounting some electrical boxes, conduit straps, etc., in the garage associated w/ the garage door opener under discussion in the thread on the safety lights... :)

I own the inexpensive single-shot pistol-grip Remington; it works adequately and the fasteners made specifically for it are readily available at virtually all "ordinary" hardware/building supply outlets. But Remington doesn't have the wide range of alternatives as does Hilti such as the threaded studs, etc., and not all Hilti will fit to be used in it.

So, I'd recommend the rental option of the Hilti--a good rental shop should have several from which to choose; they make a variety some specifically designed for electrical work such as you're talking as well as others for the construction end. You may want to switch w/ tasks although each will handle a range of fasteners not all...I don't recall model numbers otomh; look at the Hilti site to see the catalog and get an idea then tromp down to the rental location near you...

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Reply to
dpb

Miami, see if you can beg, borrow, steal an impact battery gun. It makes a monumental difference using Tapcons. I went from absolute refusal to use Tapcons (various failures through the years) to being one of their staunchest supporters, all because of the gun. The one I own is :

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V with Lithium Ion batteries. Pricey, but excellent tool.

There are other brands.

Reply to
DanG

Remind me not to take the machinist class you took. What machinist do you know who tempers carbide? What traditional heat treater can temper carbide??

Water can be an effective cutting fluid, particularly on SS. For cinderblock/SDS bits, the issue is mostly cooling.

Remind me not to......... You can sharpen carbide on anything, the Q is, how fast. Traditionally, carbide is sharpened on a green wheel. Most people have gray (aluminum oxide/resin) wheels. I just happen to have a green wheel mounted right next to a white wheel, and I can tell you that the white wheel pert near disintegrates on carbide -- although it will remove material, but not much better than a gray wheel, which lasts an *orders* of magnitudes longer than a white wheel, and proly a single order of magnitude better than a green wheel.

Reply to
Existential Angst

Depends on the weight mostly. And the construction of the wall. If it is block, is every cell grouted? If not, you will have to use shallow tapcons, or a powder actuated fastener will just blow a nice hole in the unfilled block. If you do hit a filled cell, the weight of what's hanging will dictate the fastener. For a lot of them, Tapcons will hold a lot of weight. You can also use sleeve anchors, which I have found to work very well. Be really careful of the placement of the fastener so that you don't drill into a grout line, and drill in the center "meat" of the block or a filled concrete cell whenever possible. Tapcons are easy to use, come in kits with drills and everything, and have incredible pull out ratings.

Steve

Reply to
Steve B

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