On Friday, April 18, 2014 12:34:21 PM UTC-4, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
I'm not opposed to using a socket and agree it has advantages. It's just
that I'm not familiar with the socket, where you'd get it, how it can
be easily mounted inside a typical weatherproof electrical box, etc. I
just thought if there was some relay module type thing, with wires or
screw terminals, it would be easier to deal with.
I looked on Ebay a bit. And there are relays, some even come with a
socket, so that would solve the socket problem. But so far, I haven't
found one that's 240V coil, 240V contacts, rated for 1hp, etc. One
problem there is that have thousands of them and they aren't organized
so it's hard to wade through them all. There are a lot of cheap ones from
China that even come with a socket, but they are only rated for 5A.
On Saturday, April 19, 2014 1:47:08 AM UTC-4, PV wrote:
I guess you could use two timers, like they show. One to start and
stop the pump. The other to switch it between high and low speed.
But it's a kludge. You then have two timers to fiddle with. And
those timers with the cog things can only be set approximately, so
you'd need to have the pump start on high and run probably 20 or 30 mins,
before the second timer switched it to low speed. Plus the second timer
is $125. So far, looks like I can do a two relay approach for ~$20
and have the switch-over occur at 1 min. That is if I need to do it.
First plan is to try it and see if it will just start up ok on low.
I'm kind of surprised that there aren't simple pool pump oriented
solutions available for what must be a common problem. They do have
pool pump motors that have timers built in to them, but IMO that's
a far from ideal solution. Not crazy about a pump that costs 2X with
electronics that can fail built into it. Not to mention that bending
over, getting to a pump, to fiddle with the digital timer doesn't
sound very appealing.
I'm curious to see how much electricity this will save. I'm hoping it
cuts it at least in half. It will also be better suited to solar, because
with solar at high speed, it wants to run more hours to heat the pool than
is required for filtering. Running at half speed will closely match
heating time with time needed for filtering, further reducing electricity
Since I've done a lot of control system and HVAC work, I keep things as
simple and inexpensive as I can. If your control system has two
different contactors for high/low speed, a simple timer and relay should
do the job and if you understand simple relay logic control, you should
have no problem. A delay on make timer module and a small enclosed fan
relay should do the trick. You can pick up the parts at a local HVAC
supply house and it will be less than $25.00 for the parts if you are a
walk in civilian even though the supply houses tend to charge civilians
a higher price. I've used ICM Controls products for many years with no
problems and all HVAC supply houses stock them. Look for an ICM 102 time
delay relay module and a small DPST enclosed fan relay of the correct
control voltage that has Faston connectors and a mounting tab. With
those two parts, some wire and crimp on Faston connectors it should be
an under 30 minute job. If I knew exactly what control system you have
along with a wiring diagram, I could type out what and where the
connections should be made. ^_^
On Saturday, April 19, 2014 8:30:09 PM UTC-4, The Daring Dufas wrote:
It's only set-up for the existing single speed pump, that's the problem.
A delay on make timer module and a small enclosed fan
That's basically the most cost effective solution I've found, except
a small fan relay isn't going to work. I'll need one that can handle
the 1 HP motor. The 1HP motor is on a mechanical timer switch, no
contactor. But it's the same idea. I could use one big time delay
relay, but they appear hard to find, at least from the easy to order/cheap
channels, eg Ebay. However I have found a time delay relay that's good
for 5A and a power relay, which together are ~$20.
I've used ICM Controls products for many years with no
Yes, one of those followed by a power relay should do what I want.
Thanks. It looks like a better form factor too than some of the
other relay options. I see them on Ebay too, cheap.
Except that relay has a 24V coil. I have no low voltage, everything needs
to be 240V. But that's OK, the ICM and similar time delay relays are
also available for 240V.
Well, I was having to guess. I thought you already had a two speed setup
but one of the things you may have to look out for is if you must change
the motor wiring connections to change speeds, you may need more than
two poles in a contactor because the connections often swap around
from winding to winding to get different speeds. There are higher
current inexpensive open frame relays that may work and if you must, you
can use more than one relay to switch motor windings. The relays would
need to be the type which will switch normally open and normally closed
which means the relay will toggle a center connection from one
connection to the other. ^_^
On Sunday, April 20, 2014 10:49:36 AM UTC-4, The Daring Dufas wrote:
One wire is common, then one wire for hi, another for low. So,
all I should need is a SPDT relay. That is if I even need it.
I'm going to try it and see if the pump will start and run on low,
without having to start it on high first.
If I have to do the time delay thing, I think the best solution is
your ICM time delay module and this power relay:
I have the pump apart and the old motor out. Just ordered seals for
the pump. It wasn't leaking, but it is 8 years old and given the extra
work if it leaks, figure it's worth $10 to put in new seals.
Well, I was guessing again. You can double up the contacts for more
current capacity. One thing I noticed about online ordering is that the
shipping charges can be almost as much as the cost of the part. The ICM
time delay relay is only 2" square and weighs .1 pound but the shipping
and handling can eat you alive. That's why I suggested a local supply
house, since they order the things by the crate, they don't have huge
shipping charges. I order a lot of stuff from Amazon and am a Prime
customer getting free 2 day shipping on most items but I still have to
watch out for shipping charges for things that don't qualify for Prime.
The ICM timer is listed on Amazon but the shipping charges were more
than half the cost of the timer. If there is a Johnstone Supply in your
area, you may see if you can get the parts there. ^_^
The ICM is on Ebay for about $9 including shipping. The power relay
was about $15, I think. Seems like a good solution to me.
On the other hand, I went over to the local pool store that built
the pool. I needed an O-ring that goes on the 1 1/2" drain plug for
the Pentair DE filter. They wanted $17 for it. LOL. I guess there are
some people dumb enough to pay it, but not me. After I left, I was
wondering if they had the price entered for like a 10 pack or something
by mistake. Curiously, there was only one person selling it on Ebay
and they also wanted $17. It's just a common O-ring that's used for
all kinds of stuff. I found an online supplier selling them for $.32
but you have to buy 25 minimum.
I found it an online pool store for $1. It did cost $9 to ship, but I
also got the pump seal, some other O-rings, etc. Wound up costing $23
for everything, but I got 8 parts.
You chose wisely. I go to a supplier called Motion Industries for
bearings and O-rings because I can often get O-rings made of a different
and more durable material. There are locations for the supplier around
the country and I've gone to several when I was traveling around
servicing different equipment. I really like online shopping but I'm
always careful of shipping charges and will call or Email a supplier if
I see an $8 shipping charge for a $4 item to see if I can purchase more
small items and have all of them included in the same shipment for the
same shipping charge. It's been a long time since I bought anything off
Ebay and back then there was some controversy about a few people
charging, as an example, $100 shipping for a $75 item. Perhaps I'm a
skeptic but I always see a low price as too good to be true. ^_^
Just an update on the dual speed pool pump conversion. I have it
done and did some preliminary testing. If the solar system is unprimed
and the pump starts on 1/2 speed it won't get the water flowing. But
once it's been run and has water in it, it appears it will re-start on
1/2 speed. It starts off with real low water flow and takes about 5 mins
to reach normal 1/2 speed flow. So, I think I'm OK and won't have to use
a time delay circuit to always start it off at full speed. I'll know
for sure when it get to the point that it makes sense to start heating
Thanks for all the help. If needed, I know the solution is the ICM
time delay relay and a power relay and have room to mount them. I'm
looking forward to saving a lot on electricity. The new dual speed motor will
probably be about paid off by the end of this season.
On Tuesday, May 6, 2014 12:02:20 PM UTC-4, bob haller wrote:
Well, it can't possibly damage the pump motor. Even them pump can't be
damaged. It has some water flow right from the beginning. These pumps
are self-priming, meaning they can start up without water. The seal
is ceramic, so even with a little water flow for the first few minutes,
nothing is going to happen. Same pump accidently was run for hours with
no water at all and it worked fine after. When I did the tear down,
the ceramic seal was still A-OK.
to the pump.
I spent years doing field modifications to all sorts of equipment and
used ICM time delay relays because of the simplicity and reliability for
assembling control system modifications. I used a lot of them working on
HVAC systems to increase the life of compressors by preventing short
cycling. If you have a Johnstone Supply anywhere near you, you can
obtain ICM time delay relays, contactors and control relays there. WW
Grainger should have all of that stuff to. ^_^
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 08:13:06 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
You might want to think about bearings too. They are usually a 6203
and you can get them online for a few bucks each. It is usually more
like $10 at the counter store, still a deal if you are not buying more
than a couple.
I usually get them 20-30 at a time since I do a lot of pump and
aerator work. It is the most common size it seems. You will need a
long jaw bearing puller and something to drive the new one on.
A 5/8" washer and a piece of pipe will work for a driver. Just be
careful not to break the start switch when you are taking it apart. I
take that off first and put it in a safe place.
That "U" shaped metal doodad (if you have one) is the adjustment, you
don't crank it down as tight as you can get it ;-)
You want the switch to open when the centrifugal plate is collapsed
and the switch to get a good "wipe" when it returns to normal
(.030-.050" of over travel after contact)
Also don't lose the "slinger", the rubber washer between the pump
housing and the motor face. That is what keeps any water that does get
past the seal from getting to the bearing.
On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 12:08:11 -0500, The Daring Dufas
That really does not work that well. Contacts burn when they open and
if these paired contacts do not open at exactly the same time (within
a millisecond or less) the first one to open will burn.
As it erodes away the gap widens and the problem gets worse.
There are arc suppression schemes but it has to be sized to the load.
On 4/20/2014 12:41 PM, email@example.com wrote:
I've never had a problem with it because of what I always do without a
second thought or perhaps a little thinking. I always use clamping
diodes for DC loads on relays but I'm not switching 100 amps DC. I also
use disk capacitors and MOV's across contacts. As I wrote, I'm not
switching huge loads in a control circuit and what I do is not just for
extending the life of the relay but to help eliminate or minimize RF
noise and voltage spikes which can be hard on solid state circuitry. The
OP is using a small relay in a control circuit so he shouldn't have a
problem with eroding contacts. ^_^
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