I have a sub panel that is on a 30 amp breaker feed from the main panel. At
this sub panel I have tapped into the main supply lugs to run a feed to an
other sub panel that is 3 feet from the first sub panel . The 2nd sub panel
is one breaker supplied for a hot tub at 30 amps ...Wire size and breakers
is not in dispute, what a home inspector stated was to tap from the main l
ugs was not ok I should have used a junction connection some were else othe
r than the lug connections there was plenty of room in each lug connector a
nd they tightened correctly and all the wiring passed , in dispute is the m
ethod of connection for the 2nd sub panel. I had been told by a "electricia
n" that junction connections simply have to be contained and were it is con
nected it certainly is contained .Any thoughts?
oh and the first sub panel is rated at 125 amps.
On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 1:26:38 AM UTC-7, wtf wrote:
home inspectors have no license in the state of California and far as being
a contractor or licensed engineer . The local building inspector had signe
d off on the installation. also at this panel the original permit was place
d in plan view next to it. Home inspectors are used when real estate in bei
ng sold and usually its the buyers agent that orders the home inspector...T
he local building inspector said something about it being only 3 ft from t
he first sub panel to the next and less than 25 ft, like that was the decid
ing factor, possibly referencing some code? He seemed to feel that running
the 4 main wires to a split lug junction would create a less desirable cond
ition than to have them cleanly attached at the mains. Unfortunately that b
uilding inspector is no longer around passed away several years ago. City b
uilding inspectors do not revisit past inspections around here. They need n
ew permit applications in order to get paid.
On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 9:05:44 AM UTC-7, billybobbobrob wrote:
nia as far as being a contractor or licensed engineer . The local building
inspector had signed off on the installation. also at this panel the origin
al permit was placed in plain view next to it. Home inspectors are used whe
n real estate in being sold and usually its the buyers agent that orders th
e home inspector...The local building inspector said something about it be
ing only 3 ft from the first sub panel to the next and less than 25 ft, lik
e that was the deciding factor, possibly referencing some code? He seemed t
o feel that running the 4 main wires to a split lug junction would create a
less desirable condition than to have them cleanly attached at the mains.
Unfortunately that building inspector is no longer around passed away sever
al years ago. City building inspectors do not revisit past inspections arou
nd here. They need new permit applications in order to get paid.
( corrected typos)
On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 10:13:52 AM UTC-7, firstname.lastname@example.org wrot
ing a contractor or licensed engineer . The local building inspector had si
gned off on the installation. also at this panel the original permit was pl
aced in plan view next to it. Home inspectors are used when real estate in
being sold and usually its the buyers agent that orders the home inspector.
..The local building inspector said something about it being only 3 ft fro
m the first sub panel to the next and less than 25 ft, like that was the de
ciding factor, possibly referencing some code? He seemed to feel that runni
ng the 4 main wires to a split lug junction would create a less desirable c
ondition than to have them cleanly attached at the mains. Unfortunately tha
t building inspector is no longer around passed away several years ago. Cit
y building inspectors do not revisit past inspections around here. They nee
d new permit applications in order to get paid.
main service at the meter is a 100 amp service. the line powering the the s
ub panel 1 is 10 ga solid wire and is 220 on a 30 amp breaker at the main p
anel the sub panel 1 is rated at 125 amps . it has its own earth ground at
that sub panel. The sub panel feed wire is 10 ga 3 conductor with a bare wi
re ground so technically there are 4 wires. so at the main lugs of this sub
panel 1 wires were put in them and tightened to jump to another sub panel
that is a 30 amp breaker sub outdoor rated box to connect a hot tub. the wi
res going to the hot tubs sub panel run 3 ft from panel 1 to it . This was
done because local code required the breaker to be within reach of the hot
tub acting like a emergency main disconnect . This again was all done and s
igned off by the local building inspector. The only thing in dispute here i
s that I used the main lugs for this sub panel as a junction lugs to run th
e feed wires for the hot tubs breaker/sub panel.
Is there documented evidence of this on hand or can you get same?
Didn't answer the pertinent question but it's bound to be at least 4 or
6 and there in is the rub...the much smaller wire in the single lug
unless it's designed for it is a potential for loosening with time and
becoming a hazard.
As far as NEC, see the previous answer; unless the panel lugs are
specifically identified by the manufacturer as suitable for multiple
conductors (and they'll specify the sizes, too) it is _NOT_
NEC-compliant to use it that way, inspector or no inspector.
Now, local Code can trump NEC and if you do have the documentation that
it passed the local jurisdiction inspection you may be able to fall back
on that and to sell the house (as it appears is the reason the issue has
been raised) I'd start with that as my position.
But, the original question on NEC is still as is--it depends entirely on
what the panel manufacturer says is the design-approved use of the lugs
in question. That's in black and white in Code in location cited.
Have you looked at the panel itself to see if it is labelled therein or
gone to the manufacturer's catalog to find out?
On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 10:32:47 -0700 (PDT), billybobbobrob
OK - I understood the power from the main went to the hot-tub panel,
and from THERE to the sub. In your case, just put another 30 amp 2
pole breaker in the Sub and connect the hot tub panel to that breaker
- that makes it all Kosher.
From what he seamed to be saying he WAS feeding his first sub from a
30 amp 2 pole breaker. The confusion comes at the second panel, where
he appears to feed a third breaker box from the lugs of the second - -
- but then mabee we are ALL confused. Not sure the OP knows what
his question is any more.
On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 2:48:26 PM UTC-7, email@example.com wrote:
the question was about using the lugs on the 125 sub panel as a junction point ? connection point for the for the hot tub disconnect , and through the other posts I found out the panel does state you can have multiple wires on those main lugs
On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 15:00:02 -0700 (PDT), billybobbobrob
I saw the last post - which does make it legal (but I think I'd
likely go with another breaker). Those lugs are designed for heavier
wires so the chance of the 2 wires shifting or making a poor
connection over time are a bit higher.
Why do you care about the opinion of a "home inspector"? You say that
this was inspected and passed by the local building inspector.
Are you trying to sell this place? Does the home inspector work for the
buyer? Tell the buyer that the wiring passed inspection, so they' ll be no
money from your to fix this issue.
"NEC Code Quandary
Q1. Is it acceptable to terminate two wires on a single screw or lug?
Q2. Is it permissible to terminate two circuits on a single circuit breaker?
A. Sometimes. According to 110-3(b) "listed or labeled equipment shall
be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in
the listing or labeling" and 110-14(a) states "terminals for more than
one conductor shall be so identified".
The only time two wires can be installed under a single screw or lug is
when the terminal is identified for this purpose. Circuit breakers rated
not more than 30 amperes are often identified for the termination of two
conductors. This can be verified by reviewing the circuit breaker
Note: Split-bolt lugs are only permitted for two conductors."
So, the definitive answer with the given information is "maybe, maybe
not OK". :)
Does the panel list the feed terminals as suitable for more than one
connection? If so, you're ok; if not then no.
That you wrote "electrician" in quotes reduces the importance of his
opinion significantly it would seem; that this person only quoted the
portion about being in an enclosure also seems to indicate incomplete
familiarity with Code.
Normally, if it passed legitimate inspection I'd say that trumps NEC but
while there many areas of more recent Code that are of marginal real
difference imo, this one is pretty high on the list of potential for an
issue if, indeed, the particular box terminals are not listed as
suitable for the second conductor. I'd recommend to check that out and
follow the manufacturer's listed procedure.
It's possible the home inspector did check the box and didn't see the
above-mentioned labeling or it may be he just automatically flagged it
just on general principles; the manufacturer's got the definitive answer
yes/no and it's allowed for them to not have it on a label attached to
the box but in the detailed catalog information for the device.
On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 8:52:27 AM UTC-4, dpb wrote:
This reminds of the idiot that installed my new service panel a few years
ago. I dealt the owner for the estimate but he sent 2 underlings to do
the installation. They installed a panel with a ground bar kit on the
right side of the panel, but not on the left. For the right side there
was room for the neutrals and grounds to be on their own lugs, but he
doubled up the neutrals and grounds on the left. I was pretty sure that
that was wrong but when I called him on it, he said it was OK. I was sure
he was wrong, so I called a buddy who is a licensed electrician who
verified that it needed to be corrected.
When I called the owner back and told him that I verified the issue with
a licensed electrician, he got pissed at me for not trusting him!
"Are you kidding me? Your guy wired the panel incorrecty and you're pissed
at me for doing my homeowner and verifying that it is wrong? You either lied
to me when you told me it was OK or you have no idea how to properly install
a service panel. Either way, you better get someone over here to fix it ASAP
or there will be hell to pay."
The next thing he tells me is that he will have to talk to his worker and
find out when he can do it "on his own time" because "I'm not going to pay
him to rewire it."
Holy crap! I told him that I don't give a crap about his business and how
he deals with his employees but if this isn't fixed within a week I will be
reporting him to the town and to anyone else that will listen.
The panel was fixed 2 days later.
Well stated and I have never seen a main breaker lug rated for 2
conductors. A lot of panels do have a kit to add lugs at the bottom of
the bus but you are still limited to the rating of the panel overall.
On 09/14/2016 12:11 PM, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Nor have I but I don't know that it isn't possible altho it would be
highly unlikely methinks...particularly for the given application
wherein the tap is #10 on a 4 or 6...
The original inspector may have let it go as "prettier" than the
split-nut and I can see that as a point but doubt it meets the
manufacturer's listing as you say since it would be so rare.
The cleanest solution probably would be to add the kit altho it's
possible may be a difficult find owing to age as it is, after all, only
100A service which indicates it's got some age on it.
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