Sharing well and pump--how much should we charge?

I share a well with my neighbor. For both of us, the well and pump were supplied by the developer who old us the land on which we built last year. Both houses use the well and pump, but only one house supplies the electricity--and that's our house! We agreed that we would pay for the electricity along with the rest of our electricity, but our neighbor should pay us half the cost of the electricity required to run the pump. Problem is, I don't know how to charge for that. I don't even know how much electricity the pump uses. It's on a circuit connected to our house's electrical service--there's no separate meter. What would be a fair amount to charge?

In case it helps, both families have two adults and two children with typical water usage--no hot tubs, swimming pools, etc.

Here's another thing I'm wondering about... Ours was the first house built, and ours was the first plumbing connected to the pump, so I'm wondering if we paid for some initial set-up that our neighbors didn't have to pay for. For example, besides the electricity each month, wouldn't there be a cost to initially run the circuit out to the pump? What other initial costs might there be that should be shared with the neighbor?

Finally, when our house was built, we installed a pressure tank. The purpose of the pressure tank is to improve the overall pressure of the plumbing in the house and to provide a sort of pressure reserve so that the pump doesn't have to turn on so frequently. I'm not sure the cost of this tank and it's related controls, but I know it was over $1,000. I also know that our neighbor did *NOT* install one of these. My question is this... Is our neighbor benefiting from our pressure tank? Besides lessening wear and tire on the pump, is it also improving the pressure for our neighbor's house, too? (The tank is located in our house's mechanical room.) Is this something that our neighbor should be compensating us for?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

- Johnnie

Reply to
JohnnieMarr
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That's a crummy situation. Essentially you've paid for the well, plumbing and wiring as well as support equipment, and the neighbor gets a tap off of it. It's hard to believe the building codes would even allow that. His use is causing wear and tear on your equipment. The electric is only a small part of the cost, eventually the pump and other expensive parts will go. Will he agree to share those costs? What if he moves, and the pump fails right after a new owner moves in? I think you should get paid as though you were selling water to the neighbor, assuming you are the legal owner of this equipment. I would also expect your and his deeds to spell out this situation and clarify how to handle it

Reply to
RBM

that last sentence contains the answer.

how is this agreement spelled out, in legal terms? on your closing statement, on deed, gentlemen's handshake, what?

I would suggest you sit down with neighbor and spell out a simple paper where he agrees to pay you a monthly stipend which includes a future fee for not only the electric use (that can not be more than $15 per month) plus some amount for depreciating the hardware, plumbing, tanks, lines, supplies for parts and repairs for existing equipment.

there is no need to create tension due to this situation, so my quick solution would be to create a paper which you both sign and have 2 witnesses for signatures, ie. we have agreed that our neighbor pays $20 per month which includes all electric and parts existing or any repairs now and in the next 24 months - this agreement will stay in force until Feb 2010 at which time it will be renegotiated based on then prevailing utility rates and consideration to equipment age and any repairs that may need to be performed in the next 12 months as of Feb 2010

should your neighbor not agree to these terms, make every attempt to come to a mutually agreeable solution without appearing to be taking advantage of the status now

Reply to
tom

> I share a well with my neighbor.  For both of us, the well and pump

> > were supplied by the developer who old us the land on which we built > > last year.  Both houses use the well and pump, but only one house > > supplies the electricity--and that's our house!  We agreed that we > > would pay for the electricity along with the rest of our electricity, > > but our neighbor should pay us half the cost of the electricity > > required to run the pump. > > that last sentence contains the answer. > > how is this agreement spelled out, in legal terms? on your closing statement, on deed, > gentlemen's handshake, what? > > I would suggest you sit down with neighbor and spell out a simple paper where he > agrees to pay you a monthly stipend which includes a future fee for not only the > electric use (that can not be more than $15 per month) plus some amount for > depreciating the hardware, plumbing, tanks, lines, supplies for parts and repairs for > existing equipment. > > there is no need to create tension due to this situation, so my quick solution would > be to create a paper which you both sign and have 2 witnesses for signatures,

Unfortunately, the stage is already set for tension to be created. For example, he says they agreed to split the cost of the electricity, but apparently no mention was ever made of splitting anything else. So, now trying to get the neighbor to pay more could very easily create tension, even if he goes about it very nicely and is 100% right.

I agree with the advice to check the closing documents. This arrangement should have been spelled out in the deeds or a seperate agreement at closing. Who's land is the well and pump eqpt actually on? Did you use an attorney at closing? Was he aware of this situation and what did he say?

If there are no terms specified anywhere, then I'd figure out what the estimated life of the well and eqpt is. I'd figure in a yearly depreciation and have the neighbor pay you half. As for the electric, you can estimate that too, by knowing the operating draw of the pump and how long it runs on average. There are devices like the kill a watt gizmo that will tell you how much electric a device uses by the day, week, etc. Of course, you still don't know for sure, because one house could use 3X the water of the other. For example, suppose the neighbor installs a lawn irrigation system?

Then, you need to keep track of the payments over time that the neighbor is making towards his half of the depreciation. If it turns out replacement is needed, for example if the pump were to fail, then at that time you would credit the amount paid for depreciation of that particular item against the neighbors share of the replacement cost. The agreement should spell out that any excess is to be split between the parties. It should also spell out that for any routine repair, as opposed to replacement, the cost will be split.

In general, as you are beginning to find out, this is usually a bad situation that leads to trouble. For the cost of the well and eqpt, it's just not worth it. It's better to have paid any extra $5K up front and not have to deal with this, because sooner or later, it could very easily cost you more than that in legal fees and headaches. An obvious point where that headache will come into play is when you go to sell your home? It's not too likely that the next buyer will overlook this as you did.

ie. we

have agreed that our neighbor pays $20 per month which includes all electric and parts > existing or any repairs now and in the next 24 months - this agreement will stay in > force until Feb 2010 at which time it will be renegotiated based on then prevailing > utility rates and consideration to equipment age and any repairs that may need to be > performed in the next 12 months as of Feb 2010 > > should your neighbor not agree to these terms, make every attempt to come to a > mutually agreeable solution without appearing to be taking advantage of the status now
Reply to
trader4

Andy suggest:

Here's and idea. Put in a second pump for yourself. Tell your neighbor that he can have the "old" system as his own, but he will have to put in his own electric line. That way two pumps will use the same suction line (not a problem with a check valve) and the expense to do these items will be roughly the same.

If the neighbor doesn't go for it, ask him what he would suggest as a fair division of the costs of providing water to you both.....

By the way, whose land does the suction line exist on ? If you two reach and agreement, be sure that an easement is provided to the suction line, or anything that is necessary for the operation of the system.

Sometimes it's better to bend a little than to insist on what one feels is one's "just" rights. A good neighbor is far more of an asset than an old pump....

Andy in Eureka, Texas

Reply to
Andy

This is like asking an employee to use *his* car for your business and only paying him for his cost of gasoline. We all know that there are many costs associated with owning a car... Purchase, interest on loan, license, insurance, gasoline, and repair costs.

Same with a well. Every so often need a new pump. Need costly repairs. Sometimes need to dig a deeper well because well goes dry. Can have trouble with bacteria or contamination in water and need to treat it. Can have a daily limit as to how much water can be pumped from certain wells, etc.

What if your neighbor decides to use too much water and this makes the well go dry for the day and you are left without water?

What if the well goes dry and you need to dig a deeper well? Who pays what?

What if you and your neighbor are without water because the well went dry, it will cost $10,000.00 to get it fixed, and you decide you want to wait 30 days before having this done (time to get money or loan)? Can your neighbor sue you because you are not providing them with water?

What if your well becomes contaminated with bacteria and this makes your neighbors sick? Are you liable for their medical costs?

What if they don't pay you their share and you cut off their water? Can they sue you?

Etc.

The only way I would do this is to place the well on a separate electric meter and install a water meter on the neighbor's line. Also a water meter on your line. (Can tell who is using how much.)

Then find out how much total water can be used from this well daily. Find out typical maintenance costs over a 10 year period. Cost to replace pump. Cost for deeper well, etc.

Then get it in writing (with a lawyer doing the writing) that you or future owners of your house are under no obligation to provide water to your neighbor, that you are just doing this on a temporary basis until they get their own well, and that you may disconnect them at any time for any reason.

Also that you are not responsible for any water contamination by bacteria or otherwise.

That they are limited to using only a certain amount of water a day and if they exceed this, you can cut off their water without notice.

And if they are late with their payments, there will be a late charge and interest charges.

That you can change the terms of the agreement at anytime. That the agreement is not transferrable to another person (future owners of their house).

Then calculate the cost of electricity they use each month based on their water usage and charge for that. Also charge for their share of yearly operating costs (well drilling, pump replacement, repairs, cost of meters, etc.), and charge for your time to keep track of all this.

Basically the contract would say you are not responsible for anything, can cut them off anytime you wish, and they must pay for their fair share of everything (not just electricity).

Perhaps also state that you are charging them a monthly "connection fee" which will be paid even if they use no water at all and this fee is not based on usage. (You would not have to calculate usage every month and they could not come back at you claiming you miscalculated their usage, etc. wanting a credit.) You could choose to just charge them a monthly fee and not bother with doing any calculating if you so choose.

Reply to
Bill

From someone who has been there and done that. I bought a house on a community well. The well was on the neighbors land - originally ran 4 houses but only mine and the neighbors when I bought.

First and most important (others also said it) - get an agreement in writing and best preapared by a lawyer.

Points to be covered:

Who is responsible for the maintenance? If it is 'call a plumber' then just who? The plumber won't come to a call he can't bill for. If it will be one of you, that person needs to be compensated for the time. In my case, I wound up as that person - unpaid - because I was the only one who knew how.

How are costs of maintenance to be shared? Monthly charge (best)? As needed? - works for minor stuff but a major cost (busted pump) can be beyond what just writing a check will cover at a moments notice.

How much water is to be used? Very important. In my case I was frugal with the water but the neighbor was running four sprinklers

24/7 on her pasture.

I finally got fed up with the system and drilled my own well to get off the 'somethign wrong witht he pump calls' and trying to get a reasonable split on costs. Still do have the connection to the community well though (that is deeded).

Bottom line to repeat: Get a legal agreement drawn up.

Re: neighbor getting benefit of your pressure tank. Yes he is unless there is a one-way valve cutting him off from the tank. The pressure switch would have to located on his side of the valve though.

Harry K

Reply to
Harry K

Hmmm. Personally, I would'nt be in a siuation where this arrangment aplied. But you are, so you have to deal with it.

First thing I'd o would be o put in water meters for each ouse, so that the gallonage used in each house could be tracked.

Second thing would be o et that pup on a separate meter, not connected to either house's domestic electric load.

Yep, could be expensive capital costs. And those sould be split 50 - 50.

Ongoing useage, split the elctric costs each month on the percentage of water by gallonage being used at each house. House A uses 10,000 gallons in month of January, House B uses 20,000 that month, House A pays 1/3 of pump electric, House B pays 2/3 of pump electric for that month. look at the gallonage each month and readjust each month.

Pumps wear out. How do you propose to take care of pump replacement

15 years down the road? What witten down in advance arrangement do you have for pipe leak repair in water lines from pump to each house?

You and nighbor have similar sized families now and maybe similar water use patterns. What happens when neighbor sells to the proverbial single little old lady ? Or the family with a dozen kids?

You and nighbor have similar sized families now and maybe similar water use patterns. What happens when neighbor sells to the proverbial single little old lady ? Or the family with a dozen kids?

Fahgedabbout that. It was chicken feed.

By the way, what poperty is he well on (or in)? Do you and neighbor i your deeds both have an easement to get to the water lies for service? Do you each, in your deeds, have water rights acces to 1/2 the flow of the well?

The situation you have already described is so screwy, already, that one can only guess as to how the plumbing was done. Its possible that the well feeds the pressure tank and the tank feeds both houses. Without looking at it an tracing out the plumbing, no one in this news group could tell. We aren't there, we can't see it.

Besides lessening wear and tire on the pump, is it

What attorney represented you in the closing?

What attorney represented the other home buyer?

I can't believe a locality would allow this kind of arrangement, it would ot be allowed for new construction in this state (Oregon).

I almost can't believe there is a lender out there who would lend on either house, but especially on house two. Then again, lenders are far too often stupid, as the sub prime farce shows.

Good luck, you are going to need it.

- Johnnie

Reply to
jJim McLaughlin

Why not assume that the capital costs heretofore have been paid equitably between both properties, and then enter into an agreement that each one of you will pay a fund to maintain the system. The fund would be in joint ownership and run with each one of your lots,

Once a pre-determined maintenance reserve fund is established, the funds would sit and draw interest. In the event of a failure, the fund would have sufficient reserve to pay for parts and labor to replace.

As far as electric costs, a Hobbs meter can be installed to see how many hours a month the pump runs. The electric cost can be derived by multiplying the hours times the rate of consumption, and then by the electric rate. The neighbor would be responsible for half.

This would be a good deal for both of you.

Reply to
Roger Shoaf

Haven't read the other responses yet.

My solution would be to ask the neighbor for half the capital cost of the pump installation and equipment. The agreement will include a clause that all maintenance and replacement costs for the pump and accessories will be split down the middle regardless of who was using the pump when it broke down or whose fault it was.

Then ask him to run his own power line to the pump so that when he needs run the pump he runs it off his own power supply. Perhaps a electrician should figure this one out. The neighbor already has a switch and power cable to turn on the pump. There should be a way to make this line live to run the pump from his own power source. With the set up so that the power source from each house wouldn't interconnect and cause short circuit problems.

A better solution will be a Y or T connector to the well pipe. Each branch is connected to its own pump. When one pump runs it shuts off the other branch of the Y. This way there is no dispute as to whose pump it is when repair costs arise, and no dispute as to who pays for the power used to run his own pump. You don't have to talk to each other again.

Reply to
PaPaPeng

If the tank is just connected to the incoming line, then the neighbor is probably benefitting too. When he opens a valve in his house, the water will come from your tank, flowing back from your house to the junction where his water line comes off, until the pressure drops enough for the pump to turn on. But this isn't ideal for him (there will be a pressure drop through all that pipe) and certainly isn't ideal for you (you're providing water from your tank to his house).

A partial fix for this is to put a check valve between the incoming pipe and your house including the pressure tank. That way, water that has made it into your tank stays in the tank, for your benefit, and your pressure doesn't drop suddenly when the other guy opens a tap.

But this may make the pump run more often than is ideal. The solution to that is for your neighbor to add his own pressure tank, at his expense. If he's not willing to do this now, when it's clearly mostly for his own benefit, how willing will he be to pay half the cost of a replacement pump when it fails?

Dave

Reply to
Dave Martindale

Talk to the developer. After all, it's only been a year. Find out some more facts from him. You did have inspectors out when the house was built this year, right? Call their office for documents.

Some places in the desert of Las Vegas, NV have up to 12 homes on community wells. Apparently, the wells and all on are on an easement...but I don't know for certain. Again, as others say! Check your documents.

Is the well on his property and you agreed to pay the electric bill, because of a slight oversight?

Reply to
Oren

You should have had the agreement down on paper from the beginning.

If things got nasty, there's no telling of how it would turn out.

Does your ownership agreement say _anything_ about this? Is it listed as an easement?

I think it's _way_ too late to consider recouping the cost of the initial installation. Chalk that up to experience, and don't do it again.

You could purchase a Killawatt meter and monitor the power consumption for a month or more, split the power consumption in half, and bill him for that at the current going rate. This only works if the pump is

120V (and preferably plug-connected). Killawatts are only about $40. At 240V, I dunno of any solutions that cheap.

As for maintenance - the common plumbing elements are: well, pump, pressure tank, and anything else his water goes through before it goes off to his house. Like a water softener. He should pay half the repair bills of any equipment in your place it goes through before it gets to his. If he objects to that, you will have to consider whether it's in your best interest to eat the costs, or go the legal route.

Without some pre-agreement on maintenance, paper or otherwise, you may well be screwed. A court may consider what little agreement that there was to be a binding "contract", in which case you're stuck with it. Legal advice is advised, but don't threaten/start proceedings until you're ready to make a long term enemy.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

Wow! Lots of responses! Thanks for all the advice.

I'm surprised the mere idea of well sharing is so foreign to everyone. It's very common in Wisconsin. It makes a lot of sense. There are rarely any problems, and I personally have never heard of any first-hand. Sharing a well causes no problems with deeds, mortgages, buying, selling, etc. Our deed, and our neighbor's deed, both have the same language regarding the well and pump, and the deeds were reviewed by attorneys, title companies, lenders, etc. This is all legit.

My only problem is *HOW* to split the electricity. We both agree that we'll split it, and our deeds stipulate that we'll split it, but how do we split it? I'm waiting to hear back from my neighbor to see if he agrees on a reasonable amount like $15/mo. I have no reason to believe he'll argue about it. If he does, I'll just have to install a meter on that circuit, watch it for a few months to come up with an average, and then charge based on that. If the cost of a meter is reasonable, I may do that regardless, as I'm a lover of information, and I'd just like to know how much juice the pump uses.

I'm satisfied that the cost to run the circuit in the first place is negligible, and I won't bother my neighbor with that. Besides, we'd have to run that circuit even if we didn't share a well, and our neighbor had to run a similar circuit to control the pump, so it's not worth analyzing.

As for the pressure tank... I'm going to have a non-biased third party plumber look at the installation and make sure it's fare, and explore the "check valve" to make sure my neighbor doesn't benefit from it, or, if necessary, figure out what initial costs should be shared.

Thanks for all the information everyone!

- Johnnie

Reply to
JohnnieMarr

we share a well with the well's owner (whos never here) and another neighbor. the well's owner charges us $35 a year and i know that i use alot more water than he does cj in michigan

Reply to
cj

snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: ...

Well, you left out the part of it being included in the deeds, easements, etc. The discussion was over the case in which, as it sounded like from the original post, one property owner was supplying water to an adjacent lacking anything other than a very nebulous verbal arrangement for power.

If the agreement were were complete, it would adjudicate the split as well.

Lacking a formal agreement, estimating is fine if you and the neighbor are both agreeable. Whether that's equitable depends on relative water use, though, not simply the power charge. While the incremental operational cost isn't probably enough to worry about excessively, what about the distribution of repair costs, etc? Are they to be shared

50:50 or on some estimated basis or what? If one uses far more over time than the other, is it fair that that user pay less than the fractional amount of water used?

The point really isn't that you and the current neighbor couldn't work this all out between the two of you (although I'm curious as another respondent that if there weren't some friction that you would feel prompted to post the question to usenet) without anything further, but the scenario of future neighbors who may not be so easygoing. If there's a firm legal basis for all the ancillary costs besides simply the incremental power cost, then there's a basis for settlement that minimizes potential bickering. Again, the basis for this shouldn't be to try to favor one party over the other but to make it an equitable (and well-defined) arrangement. ...

As a shared well, what's not "fair" about him gaining some "benefit" from the pressure tank -- it's part of the system and the _system_ is shared. One would presume the well feeds the pressure tank and the tank then feeds both properties.

Again, the agreement should include the system and costs for maintaining it, not simply the operational costs.

What happens if the well fails and you're out of town for an extended period? The neighbor have access to everything they need to get the problem resolved before you return?

So many questions, so few answers...

--

Reply to
dpb

You could measure the time the pump runs by adding a clock to the circuit. The amount of electricity used by the pump can be measured with a amp meter or watt meter.

Reply to
Pat

This situation is definatly a NO NO. When two or more houses use the same well the legal owner has started a water co. This creates all sorts of problems.

Reply to
Herb and Eneva

Depends. A lot of developments have shared wells and there is no one "legal owner". It is owned by the community and is part of the covenants as to what the fees are, who is responsible, etc.

Nothing wrong with shared wells as long as there is an enforceable contract involved.

Having BTDT, I would never do it again on the 'handshake' method.

Harry K

Reply to
Harry K

According to snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com:

It's not foreign. However, entering into one of these without a firm legal basis for it is not only foreign, but very unwise.

At least you seem to have a reasonable relationship with him.

Sharing electrical costs on a guess of, say, $10-20/month is perfectly reasonable if you're both happy with it. Measuring it may be more trouble than it's worth. You could put it in a repair fund.

The real issue is repairs. You need to discuss with him circumstances, cost sharing, and what constitutes "shared equipment". That will be well, well supply lines, pump, control systems, and almost certainly pressure tank (unless you have checkvalves between it and where his feed taps off). If you have a water softener that feeds him, it's shared too. Do you have filters? Do they feed him? Etc.

How things get done if your neighbor can't get access to the equipment while you're away is also an issue. Do you trust them enough to give 'em a key?

As for the initial installation cost, it's probably too late, but, perhaps no harm in asking if your relationship is that good.

Now, once you get that all thrashed out, write it down in simple and plain language (should be less than a page), and each should keep a signed copy. That will keep things sane in the future.

Note: because of various incidents over the past years, people are getting considerably more leary of small-scale water sharing. You don't want to face major lawsuits over a contamination problem you didn't catch. You'll probably need to advise your insurance company.

Reply to
Chris Lewis

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