Run away cars

[Jack]

For a post that some did not want to see, it has got more than a little attention. LOL

[trader4]

I didn't see SA claiming any such device existed. All he's been saying is that unless a thorough analsis is done of the design of the cars involved, no one knows what exists or doesn't exist. That's why there needs to be a thorough investigation of all the cars involved. It's YOU who have been making many false statements and claiming to know with 100% certainty how these cars are designed, what interlocks are involved on the transmission, how they work, etc. As for proof, I'm still waiting for any references from you for a number of your claims:

A - New cars typically have only two computers, and some have only one

B - The trend today is toward using one centralized CPU in cars to control everything

C - The airbag, climate control, and radio are done with one computer on at least some cars

D - You can use a microprocessor in a system and have it not be a computer.

[clare]

it's a sOlenoid, not a sElenoid. That was his point. We all know what SOLENOIDS do.

[clare]

Didn't read far enough before you started yakking back - the explanation follows.

It is already happening in a big way as I just explained.

I didn't say ONE computer was redundant.. I said easier to implement redundancy - because only 2 pcocessors are required instead of 2 of each.

How does one company make peripherals for another companie's game machine or whatever? They have the code, running on a computer, and they make their part work with that code. it's done all the time in the computer industry. One company makes the hardware and another company writes the drivers and the application programs to make use of the hardware. They even "port" the applications to different operating systems and different processors.

Yeah, it could be done, but anyone with

Except that's not how Delco, and numerous other companies are doing it today. Many GM cars today will not function with the radio removed. All kinds of things don't work because the radio is tied into the BCM. And the radio can NOT be run without being connected to the BCM. That IS how it IS being done TODAY.

Hey, I don't know where you are coming from and what you know or think you know.

I work with computers every day - and not just as a user. I also have a professional knowlege of automotive mechanics and systems. I know what embedded systems are - and how they are used.

You may call everything that has a microprocessor in it a computer. I don't.

You may think that the future is a computer in every little component. I happen to dissagree. The cycle that started with the large mainframe and dumb terminals has shifted to a totally decentralized network of connected computers, and is now shifting back to much smaller and cheaper but infinitely more powerfull central computers with "smart" terminals. The Client-Server model, and centralized processing is on of the more common computer models of the day - along with the much different and opposing "cloud computing" model.

Yes, the "smart terminals" are computers. But the whole scenario IS shifting back to centralized processing in MANY regards.

What is driving this change? In large parts it is dollars. One powerfull computer can now be built more economically than many smaller computers. But that is not the whole, or even the main cause.

Security today is a very expensive part of IT spending - and it is much easier to secure a single system than a spread out system - which is why you will find the "cloud" to be a passing fad.

Just my opinion, but I've been around the computer world for quite a long time (and the automotive world longer)

Will I be proven wrong? Perhaps. Would not be the first time.

But you are also wrong.

[The Daring Dufas]

A "selenoid" is that annoying guy who sold you the car, silly.

KEEP UP PEOPLE!

TDD

[clare]

Since the park/brake interlock is NOT computerized, yes I would say it is impossible for any computer issues or throttle position to interfere with that process.

The only possible exception is with Hybrid Synergy Drive on the Hybrids, where neutral is electrically controlled and I am not familliar enough with the computer system there to know what could POSSIBLY happen with MULTIPLE computer level failures. They are designed that just about any single failure will fail "safe". Is there a combination of possible failures that could allow the vehicle to run but not allow BOTH throttle control and transmission disengagement? I suppose it is POSSIBLE, but it has never to my knowlenge been demonstrated and the odds against it happening on even ONE car would be extremely high.

Yes I would.

Totally aware of that.

Nope. But it is not part of any of the corollas and camrys being recalled for the sticky throttle problem.

But I'll make a prediction, right here and now, on what WILL be found to be at least part of the problem on the cars in question.

You WILL find that the throttle control mottor/assembly is not adequately sealed, moisture is getting into the throttle mechaism, causing corrosion, which is causing rough operation of the actuator and sticking of the throttle. it is a mechanical problem - and not an electronic problem, on the whole.

Might be a glitch in the program that is not shutting the engine down when the throttle sticks - that has not been proven yet. The corroded throttle actuator HAS been documented, on several vehicles - and NOT all Toyotas. Nissan and Infinity are also affected for sure - and quite possible other companies, including the "big three"

You read it first here.

[clare]

Very familliar with a dead bolt. But also INTIMATELY familiar with brake/park shifter interlocks. The deadbolt on your front door does NOT prevent opening the back door or the garage door.

[The Daring Dufas]

On a basic level an abacus and the old mercury bulb thermostat on the wall can be called a "computer". It would really help if everyone would agree on what constitutes a "computer". Back in 1960's when I got into playing with computers, the school had an "analog computer" the size of a half dozen lunch boxes of the era. In 1965-1966 I started playing with what was the modern conception of a computer. Univac and IBM mainframes that took up whole floors of buildings. The Univac had glass doors and lots of blinking lights to entertain you. Ask any school kid today... "What is a computer?" and get back to me. Perhaps a six year old can settle the argument?

TDD

[trader4]

Show us a single link that says that is true. I've asked for this about 5 times now. I supplied you with a link to an embedded computer design website that says exactly the opposite. Which is to say that cars today have more processors than ever before.

So show us a reference that says any car manufacturers are implementing redundancy. You really are going further and further out on a limb. AFAIK, in every car made today if the engine control computer fails, the car is kaput. Show us one where they have redundancy and why the hell would anyone need redundancy for a radio?

In other words, you have no reference. Your just continuing to make up things.

They make the peripheral as a logical self contained unit. Lets take a hard disk drive. That drive has an onboard microcontroller, ie computer, that spins up the drive, runs diagnostics on it, then waits for commands, etc. It responds to commands from another computer. No different than a radio in a car having it's own microcontroller instead of relying on sharing some central CPU, as you claim. Still waiting for a reference on that too.

The whole idea of a radio relying on a central computer is silly. The radio obviously has buttons you push, maybe a dial to turn for the station, volume, etc. It has a display to show the station name. Now where does it make sense to put a microprocessor to take those inputs, and act on them. Right there in the radio, or to send God knows how many inputs, outputs off to some central computer?

They typically have THEIR OWN CODE, runnning on their peripheral, that gives it onboard diagnostics and the ability to communicate with other system components, accept commands, figure out what the command says to do, and then do it. That typically requires a microcontroller in the peripheral, eg the disk drive example.

No shit sherlock. But that has nothing to do with the microcontroller and program for the peripheral itself, which is itself an embedded computer. It's located on the peripheral, not somewhere else. The drivers and applications are located in the main CPU for the overall system. Got that? The Application program is running on the Pentium. It makes a call to the disk driver which is part of the OS. The disk driver breaks that call down into commands to the disk drive. The microcontroller which is itself another computer, takes that command, figures out what it tells it to do, eg read sector 24539. Then it steps the motor 50 tracks and reads the data. If it's an invalid command to the drive, it instead responds with an error code. All that involves an embedded microcontroller running a computer program on the disk drive itself. Capiche?

Kindly provide a link that says this is so, And if, as you claim, the radio function is located in another computer for redundancy, it seem pretty stupid that a dead radio would disable a car. If you put the microcontroller in the radio, the car wouldn't die.

Sure, I believe that. The radio doesn't work so all kinds of things don't work, Link please.

Obviously.

I have a degree in Electrical Engineering from MIT. And I spent 17 years in engineering, marketing and sales with Intel. And I say, first, I never said everything that has a microprocessor or microcontroller in it is a computer. I said anything that has a microprocessor or microcontroller embedded in it, eg, a microwave oven, a cable box, a cell phone, or many of the various modules in a car, CONTAIN an embedded computer. That is the industry definition. That is why the embedded computing site I provided as a reference says there are dozens of embedded computers in a car today. That is why there are frequent media stories of how computers are today part of many common items and your house has dozens of them. A computer in the cable box, furnace, microwave, dishwasher, etc. Capiche?

Obviously you are totally out of touch and discredited at this point because that has been the continuing trend for 3 decades.

Client server is the classic example of distributed computing. You have many clients and many servers replacing ONE CENTRALIZED CPU in a mainframe. Capiche?

- along with the much

Yeah, Larry Ellison, Scott McNealy and others have been promoting this for about 15 years now. We were supposed to all be using just intelligent terminals and downloading all apps from the network cloud. You wouldn;t need local apps anymore. Yet, just about every app I run today is on my PC.

BS. The whole industry has been driven in exactly the opposite direction because you can buy a powerful PC or microcontroller so cheaply. A whole microcontroller that could run a dishwasher or the radio in a car can be had for $1.

Above I thought you were advocating the cloud as being were we were or were going?

No, I'm not wrong. You seem to have a hard time here seperating what you claim to know to be true as fact from opinions. So, now it's not that this trend exists, that this is what is happening today, it's that it's the "future"

I'm still waiting for that reference that says cars can have the airbag control, climate control and radio all done in one computer.

Here's a reference that talks about an airbag control module and it sure says nothing about that functionality being in some centralized CPU. It says the decision making and control are in the ACU itself. Sound familiar? And while this particular reference doesn't spell out that it contains a microprocessor or microcontroller, it's obvious to anyone with any computer engineering background that reading the description of what it must do, this is how it would in fact be implemented.

airbags work

An ACU from a Geo Storm. The design is conceptually simple; a central "Airbag control unit"[25] (ACU) (a specific type of ECU) monitors a number of related sensors within the vehicle, including accelerometers, impact sensors, side (door) pressure sensors,[26] wheel speed sensors, gyroscopes, brake pressure sensors, and seat occupancy sensors. When the requisite 'threshold' has been reached or exceeded, the airbag control unit will trigger the ignition of a gas generator propellant to rapidly inflate a nylon fabric bag. As the vehicle occupant collides with and squeezes the bag, the gas escapes in a controlled manner through small vent holes. The airbag's volume and the size of the vents in the bag are tailored to each vehicle type, to spread out the deceleration of (and thus force experienced by) the occupant over time and over the occupant's body, compared to a seat belt alone. The signals from the various sensors are fed into the Airbag control unit, which determines from them the angle of impact, the severity, or force of the crash, along with other variables. Depending on the result of these calculations, the ACU may also deploy various additional restraint devices, such as seat belt pre-tensioners, and/or airbags (including frontal bags for driver and front passenger, along with seat-mounted side bags, and "curtain" airbags which cover the side glass).

Here;s another reference, this from a company that repairs and sells airbag control modules:

They call them computers. And they don't say anything about them being related to the climate control or the radio. Which makes sense for so many reasons that are obvious to anyone with any engineering experience. By putting the accelerometers and computer in one module you have a signal self-contained package that is seperate from everything else and far more easily designable, debuggable, maintainable, and most importantly reliable.

Your references that say the airbags are controlled by a central cpu that also does the climate control and radio would be?

[Doug Miller]

I don't know if this is a regional thing or not, but it seems that approximately 99.999999% of the auto parts store employees in Indiana think it's pronounced "sillanoid".

[clare]

For the most comprehensive report I've seen to date on the Toyota safety issues go to:

[clare]

Done. You won't listen anyway.

[Ed Pawlowski]

I'd be anoid if they did

[salty]

Anal retentive much?

[salty]

Yes. We've been astounded by your vast knowlege and expertise!

Bwhahahahahahahaha!

[salty]

Oi!

[salty]

More like a hemorrhoid.

[Harry K]

And the _real_ technical term - "That *&*@ thing is broke again"

[trader4]

Yeah, among the bizarre things CL claimed:

Most cars today only have two computers, some only one

The trend is toward centralizing all computer functionality in one CPU

You can use a microprocessor in a system in such a way that it is not a computer

Some cars have the same computer that runs the airbags also running the radio and climate control and they did that to save money instead of putting a cheap microcontroller in the radio.

All of that is clearly wrong. I especially like the idea of co- mingling the airbag smarts with the radio. Anyone that has done ANY engineering, product development, etc knows how that would complicate things enormously and greatly add to the design complexity. So we have the guys developing the radio in Japan and they have to work with how they are going to implement the code, share the computer resources, with the airbag team in Detroit or wherever? Instead of using a $1 microcontroller like you'd find in a microwave and putting it on the electronics board that is already in the radio and right next to the pushbuttons, tuner, display, etc. Yeah, right! And then you have the safety implications and system validation issues of having the same computer control the airbags that can explode in your face also running the radio and God knows what else.

And we're still waiting for a single link that backs any of this up.

[Paul Oman]

It was bad enough when my wife left me.

now my car has run away too!

what next?