Replacing 1 15 amp Receptacle With 1 20 Receptacle

[Steve Barker LT]

If still in doubt after all these replies, you need a qualified electrical inspector to check it out. If you do in fact have 14ga wire on the countertop outlets then the house WAS NOT built to electrical code. You will have to demand the builder fix it. I suspect after all the replies, that you probably have white (bone) colored 12 ga wire. I can't imagine anyone purposely wiring a house wrong. But on the other hand, it IS on a

15A breaker. That is definitely wrong, wrong wrong for kitchen outlets.

[RBM]

It's on a 20 amp breaker, which lends itself to your theory that the OP is mistaken about the wire size

[lwasserm]

Yes, even if it does. If the circuit has been run with 14 ga wire, by code it should NOT have a 20 amp breaker. There are several good DIY books that will explain the rationale for this. If you have a library nearby they will likely have one or more of them available.

[ZZ]

It will be a 20 amp plug.

It is supposed to draw up tp 18 amps

[lwasserm]

The problem with the wiring in the OPs circuit is not with the outlets, it is with having a 20 amp breaker on a 14 ga circuit. I wouldn't be worried about having a 20 amp _outlet_ on the 14 ga wire, provided the breaker was the correct size. In fact, I think there is a code section that even acknowledges this for the sake of allowing the 20 amp outlets to be used with 15 amp/14 ga wiring. Even if the outlet is rated for 20 amps, as long as the wiring is protected at the proper current, i.e. 15 amp breaker on a 14 gauge circuit, afety won't be compromised, since the breaker will still trip at 15 amps.

What makes the situation unsafe for the OP is that should he install the 20 amp outlet, he then has the capability of connecting a 20 amp device to a circuit with a 20 amp breaker, but the wiring in the cirucit is only rated for 15 amps.

[ZZ]

Thank you ALL for the valuable help!

I will contact my builder tomorrow regarding the wire. Once that has been taken care of I will replace my 15 amp receptacles with 20 amp ones

[ZZ]

Sorry not posting for hours on this subject, I got called into work :(

[Terry]

Let us know when you get this resolved. I am interested in what recourse you have when you find a building error.

I am guessing that this will be a costly mistake. The wire from the panel to the kitchen would need to be changed and all the wire between the receptacles. For them to change all the wire to 12 would mean pulling it all out. Which means that if you bought 20 amp replacement receptacles they would cost nothing to change. It all has to be disconnected and reconnected.

If you do get the builder to replace the wiring, I would consider trying to get an extra 20 amp circuit in the kitchen from the panel. With all the fancy gadgets you can buy for the kitchen two are barely adequate.

The microwave should be on one 20 amp circuit and the refrigerator should be on the other one. Having a 3 would add to your appliance comfort level.

[George E. Cawthon]

The problem is that the cable is not generally observable, just the wire at the box (maybe at the panel). The simplest solution to wire size is to get a piece of known 14 gage and a piece of known

12 gage and the difference in size will be readily apparent even to a newbie.

[mm]

I didn't jump. This is part of the original post "The particular circuit I want to change out has a 20 amp breaker coming from the box using a 14 gauge wire to, 1 15 amp GFI receptacle & 2 15 amp receptacles in the kitchen."

More below.

Well, I was thinking the problems may not be limited to gauge. Anyone who would put in 20 amp breakers with 14 gauge wire can't be trusted to do anything right.

[mgkelson]

This is all sounding rather odd . . . "will be a 20 amp plug" . . . "supposed to draw". How do you know it's supposed to draw up to 18 amps? If memory serves, UL will not approve an appliance that draws more than 16A on a 20A circuit, yet you have an appliance that supposedly draws 18 amps.

Is this some sort of a homemade device? Even commercial expresso machines only take about 1700 W (or 14 amps). Here's an example:

"Cecilware Venezia Automatic Espresso Machines w/ Volumetric Flow Control VAE-1 CEC-VAE-1 $3,150.00 Touch Pad Control Panel. Makes Single or Double Espresso; 1 or 2 cups at a time. Double gauge for boiler and pump pressure control. Hot water dispenser. Extra long movable steam wand. Water inlet valve. Built-in motor pump with in-line filter. 4" adjustable legs. Pod filter adapter included. European style to fit every decor. Number of heads: 1 group.

19.5"L. 120V, 1.7KW, 20 amps. Makes 240 cups/hour. Boiler size: 7 quarts."

What's the make and model number on your expresso machine?

[RBM]

snip>> What makes the situation unsafe for the OP is that should he install the 20 amp outlet, he then has the capability of connecting a 20 amp device to a circuit with a 20 amp breaker, but the wiring in the circuit is only rated for 15 amps.

He currently has three outlets on the 15 amp wire, which allows him to plug in several devices simultaneously causing an overload of the conductors, regardless of the outlet ratings

[ZZ]

Here is the information on it:

[trader4]

Something else no one appears to have pointed out. You problem is bigger than just making sure that you have a 20amp outlet on a 20amp breaker with 12 gauge wiring. Since this one appliance requires almost all the capacity of that circuit, it means you really can't have any other loads on other outlets on that circuit. In other words, it will likely need it's own circuit.

However, from the description, it appears that this model can be used in a mode where only one heater is active at a time, meaning it will work on a 15 amp circuit. If you can live with it in that mode, it could funciton on a 20amp circuit with some room for other loads. They also have a 15 amp model, which I'm guessing is basicly the same thing, but hard wired wo that it only runs in that one heater at a time mode.

[ZZ]

Good point.

Even though there are multiple receptacles on the 1 20amp circuit, nothing else will be populating the other receptacles, other then maybe recharging a cell phone or the coffee grinder.

What will draw the most amperage will be using the espresso machine to pour a shot & steaming at the same time, other then that it should not go over 15 amps

[Jeff Wisnia]

In explanation of my tweaking you on that point; Your post, which I replied to, was NOT a direct reply to the OP's post, where he certainly did write that it was a 20 amp breaker.

Your post was a reply to a post by "mgkelson" in which he simply said he used 20 amp recepticals as replacements for 15 amp ones, because he felt the 20 amp ones were "higher quality". He said nothing about the breakers on those circuits being 20 amps.

It's easy to lose track of who said what on extended multiforked threads like this one, I do it all the time.

Peace,

Jeff

[mgkelson]

That's interesting. I don't know a thing about Expresso. Can you put ordinary Folgers coffee in it and then get a fast cup of coffee?

It looks like someone has actually done a power spread sheet on that appliance. You can get it at:

They show a maximum current draw of 16.67 amps. However, they indicate a 12% fudge factor, so it might be rated at 16 amps maximum. As I said, I think that's the maximum UL allows.

I'm not an electrician, but I would guess that you are perfectly legal with installing a 20-amp socket on a circuit with 12 AWG wire and a

20-amp breaker. You do have to be careful that you don't run other stuff on the circuit, of course. I would periodically, maybe once per month or so, put your hand on the plug to make sure that it's not generating a lot of heat. If and when that happens, I would replace the plug and the socket.

Send me a cup of that coffee. I'm curious to know what it tastes like.

[kilowatt]

You can put an unlimited amount of 16 amp appliances on one 20 amp circuit. The problem comes in when you try to use them at the same time. I am guessing that that all but the warmer on the espresso machine would not be used more than 20 min a day.

If you want espresso and toast and want to use the microwave at the same time then you should consider having more circuits.

Trying to do all of this at the same time is not unsafe. It would just trip the breaker.

[mm]

You're right. I did lose track of who said what.

To you, peace.

[mm]

Is this the best example. It says only 1700 Watts, but it also says

20 amps. :(