I'm installing a new washer and electric dryer in a the bathroom closet. The closet used to hold an old washer/dryer combo unit which only required one
240V 14-30R outlet. The new dryer can use this 240V outlet ok, but I need a to install a new 120V outlet adjacent to this for the washer. Does the electrician have to run a new circuit back to the panel ($$$), or can he just pick up the 120V from one side of the existing 240V outlet? Thanks! --- John- John -
- Nehmo - Take it from one side, and ignore the inevitable responses that don't agree with this.
This is Turtle
No not if you don't want to get the required electric equipment needed to branch off like this and most of the time it will cost as much as running new circuit to it. Now cost effective usely ends up with a new circuit there.
TURTLE
- TURTLE -
- Nehmo - What might the "required electric equipment" be?
Right, and ignore anybody that says this does'nt meet code either...
A one-space fuse box, or safety switch with a breaker or fuse in it. The dryer is a 30A circuit, and the washer needs currect protection at
15A or 20A. Also, you probably need a GFCI for the washer. There are fuse holders for edison fuses that fit in a standard electrical box. I don't know if you could find one to fit one side of a double box and have a space for a Decora receptical (for the GFCI) with a matching cover plate.You also might end up tripping the breaker for the dryer with this arrangement if you run the washing machine while the dryer is running on a high-heat cycle.
Bob
- Nehmo -
- zxcvbob -
- Nehmo ? Every appliance doesn't need its own circuit breaker or fuse. The washer can piggyback on one leg of the dryer circuit its breaker (yes, assuming it won't overload it, and it probably won't).
- zxcvbob -
- Nehmo ? If OP wants, he can use a GFCI receptacle for the washer, but it wouldn't be required by NEC. The outlet would be dedicated and not readily accessible.
NEC 2002 "210.8 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel. FPN: See 215.9 for ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel on feeders. (A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and
20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. (1) Bathrooms (2) Garages, and also accessory buildings that have a floor located at or below grade level not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and areas of similar use Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible. Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8). Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G). (3) Outdoors Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied by a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426. (4) Crawl spaces ? at or below grade level (5) Unfinished basements ? for purposes of this section, unfinished basements are defined as portions or areas of the basement not intended as habitable rooms and limited to storage areas, work areas, and the like Exception No. 1: Receptacles that are not readily accessible Exception No. 2: A single receptacle or a duplex receptacle for two appliances located within dedicated space for each appliance that, in normal use, is not easily moved from one place to another and that is cord-and-plug connected in accordance with 400.7(A)(6), (A)(7), or (A)(8). Exception No. 3: A receptacle supplying only a permanently installed fire alarm or burglar alarm system shall not be required to have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection. Receptacles installed under the exceptions to 210.8(A)(5) shall not be considered as meeting the requirements of 210.52(G). (6) Kitchens ? where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces (7) Wet bar sinks ? where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces and are located within 1.8 m (6 ft) of the outside edge of the wet bar sink. (8) Boathouses (B) Other Than Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, singlephase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1), (2), and (3) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel: (1) Bathrooms (2) Rooftops Exception: Receptacles that are not readily accessible and are supplied from a dedicated branch circuit for electric snow-melting or deicing equipment shall be permitted to be installed in accordance with the applicable provisions of Article 426. (3) Kitchens"A better forum for electrical questions is something like this:
Thanks for all the responses, guys. My electrician won't do it if it doesn't meet code, so I guess the 240V tap isn't an option. One last question, please -- Would it violate code to add the new 120V outlet for the washer to the existing 15A GFCI circuit in the bathroom? (As long as I don't plug in a hair dryer at the same time) The washer is rated for a 15A circuit with a max current of 12A and steady state of 8A. Anyway, thanks again. --- John
Q: "Would it violate code to add the new 120V outlet for the washer to the existing 15A GFCI circuit in the bathroom? (As long as I don't plug in a hair dryer at the same time) "
A: 2002 NEC, CH7, subpart (d) pp. 6, para. 2: It shall be allowed that anyone may connect whatever additional devices they wish to an existing GFCI circuit; provided that (a) the GFCI circuit is in a bathroom, and (b) the GFCI circuits is rated at 15 amperes. This shall be allowed only if a hairdryer is not plugged into the existing circuit. Looks like you are in luck.
According to Nehmo Sergheyev :
Actually, there is a decent chance that running the washer and dryer on the same circuit _will_ blow the breaker. Depends on how close the breaker limit the heating coil is.
Secondly, there's a good chance that the circuit doesn't have a proper split ground/neutral, which in some cases can lead to serious hazard.
Code-wise sharing the circuit like this is just plain wrong.
Yes it would violate the US NEC. Both Laundry Circuits and bathroom basin receptacle outlets must have a separate circuit to supply them. The nature of the two uses is such that overloading is nearly inevitable.
-- Tom H
Thanks for the reference! LOL
- Chris Lewis -
- Nehmo - OP is going to let his electrician handle it, so the question is now acdemic. But a combo unit was already on that circuit, and it didn't cause a problem.
- Chris Lewis -
- Nehmo - If you use "good chance" to substitute for suplied info, you can get any conclusion you want. If you're curious if there's a ground, you have to ask. Otherwise you need to condition your response. Normally a NEMA#14-30R outlet
- Chris Lewis -
- Nehmo - Assuming your talking about NEC 2002, where in it does _it_ say a washer or dryer requires an individual branch circuit?
Anyway, sure, it is ideally preferable to have an individual branch circuit for every major appliance. But OP cited "$$$", so economy takes priority. There's a big difference in cost here.
A combo unit which was designed to operate on 1 220v 30a circuit. 2 individual units, one also designed to operate on a 30a 220v circuit, and the other designed to operate on it's own 120v circuit isn't the same thing.
Right here, in the 1999 code, article 210-52 (f).
"(f) Laundry Areas. In dwelling units, at least one receptacle outlet shall be installed for the laundry. Exception No. 1: In a dwelling unit that is an apartment or living area in a multifamily building where laundry facilities are provided on the premises that are available to all building occupants, a laundry receptacle shall not be required.
Exception No. 2: In other than one-family dwellings where laundry facilities are not to be installed or permitted, a laundry receptacle shall not be required."
And in article 210-11 (c) (2)
"210-11. Branch Circuits Required
Branch circuits for lighting and for appliances, including motor-operated appliances, shall be provided to supply the loads computed in accordance with Section 220-3. ***In addition, branch circuits shall be provided for specific loads not covered by Section 220-3 where required elsewhere in this Code and for dwelling unit loads as specified in (c).***
(c) Dwelling Units.
(2) Laundry Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by Section 210-52(f). *** This circuit shall have no other outlets.
***
Does it? Does economy take priority over the National Electrical code? Do the rules go out the window if someome simply claims they cannot afford it?
"those who consider price alone..."
snipped-for-privacy@aol.com
This is Turtle.
Look Nemo , You can hook all the wires together and just run everything on a 100 amp breaker and make it run but if you want to have it legal and leave NO chance to error. You will have to install the right equipment and the right circuit arrangement to leave no chance for error. If you add up these thing you get this. Electricity + It will work + and it didn't cause a problem + I guess it will Do = a Call to the Fire Department soon.
TURTLE
- Nehmo -
- HaHaHa -
- Nehmo - You might as well use the more recent issue. It's available: ed2k://|file|National%20Electrical%20Code%20Handbook%202002%20Edition.zi p|63039174|50FAB8DF7DA7A5112CF74961BB1F2848|h=LQ6AGFGEROOTVHJRIOUIQQAOHQ BEKIHC|/ I need 2005.
- HaHaHa -
motor-operated
accordance with
- Nehmo - That's for the receptacle outlet in the laundry room, for an iron, press, or other piece of equipment perhaps; it's not the dedicated outlet(s) for the washer & dryer (and an electric dryer outlet is usually 240V anyway, not covered by this section). You will notice it's not required in multifamily dwellings where there _are_ laundry faculties provided. If this _sole_ outlet supplies the washer or dryer, how can it be absent there?
- Nehmo -
- HaHaHa -
- Nehmo - You and your accomplices are just following the common news:alt.home.repair practice of trying to make problems for people rather than trying to help them -advocating the most burdensome route. It goes along with crabbing at people.
- Nehmo -
- HaHaHa -
- Nehmo - I don't know how that quote ends, and I considered more than price.
Nehmo Sergheyev wrote: ... ...
You're reading it wrong...it's saying in an apartment building where there are (a) communal facilites, or (b) the landlord has said, "tough, go to the corner laundromat", (and only then) can you have the dedicated outlet.
According to Nehmo Sergheyev :
Electrically, it would probably (but not necessarily - see 4) work, but code takes precidence. Unless you're feeling lucky.
How does this violate code? Let us count the ways:
1) Old-style 3-wire dryer circuits: have a combination ground and neutral. Running a 120V circuit (or indeed, ground on _anything_ other than a 3-wire stove or dryer) from a combined ground and neutral is a code no-no and potentially lethal - that's why 3-wire stove and dryer circuits are "old style" and are prohibited in new construction. [In fact, if you rework the circuit, code-wise you need to upgrade to 4wire. Might as well run a new 120V circuit instead of screwing with the 240V circuit.] 2) New-style 4-wire dryer circuits: simply tapping off a 120V circuit means that you have what's tantamount to a 15A or 20A 120V circuit breakered at 30A. Code no-no.Secondly, this is being used as a "multi-wire" branch circuit. Code prohibits mixtures of 240V and 120V devices on the same multi-wire branch (the dryer is treated as a single device obviously).
Thus, regardless of 3 or 4 wire, it still violates code, so asking which it is is irrelevant.
3) To be legal circuit-breakering/"mixture of 240V and 120V"-wise on a 4-wire circuit, you'd have to put in a breaker for the 120V tap, and treat the circuit as a subfeed. Only legal if it's four wire. May _not_ be sufficient to avoid the "do not mix" provisions. See (4) too.By the time you buy the breaker, housing, and cut up the walls, it'll likely cost just as much if not more than running a new 120V feed or tapping off something else for the washer.
4) Modern separate dryer/washers are likely to draw considerably more power when operated simultaneously than a combo washer/dryer (even a stacked) unit.Adding the washer to the dryer circuit is likely to break the 80% ampacity code rule, and perhaps even trip the breaker. Ie: 4800W dryer element plus a few amps @ 120V for the dryer motor, then add a largish washer motor on one of the 240V legs - especially if you didn't trace the appliance wiring and arranged the washer motor to be on the opposite leg from the dryer motor.
Best case you only violate the 80% code rule. Good chance of tripping the breaker.
According to TURTLE :
Breakers are for wimps. So is wire insulation. Just run everything using bare steel fence wire off the pole transformer.
If anything overloads, the wire will glow telling you what lightbulb you have to turn off.
[That's a joke! ;-)]
He did say in the original message that it was a 4-wire circuit (it was a subtle reference; he said "14-30R")
Best regards, Bob
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