Painting Questions ?

[RicodJour]

Karl, do yourself the favor and investigate a bit before you make posts such as this one.

I'll do the first search for you to help you along.

R

[RicodJour]

All paint goes on in one coat. Whether it covers in one coat is another story.

One heavy coat is inferior to two thinner coats for several reasons.

R

[jeffc]

Duh! What did you think I meant? I'm not talking about heavy coats or thin coats. I'm talking about cost savings using more expensive paint that covers in 1 coat.

[RicodJour]

It was not clear what you meant. Maybe I'm not being clear, my apologies. I've never seen a single coat cover to my satisfaction, regardless of paint quality/cost. Your standards might differ. A single coat is not as durable. When an average room takes an hour to roll out, why even mention single coat coverage? It's false economy.

R

[jeffreydesign]

Let me address each arguement in order:

"RicodJour" wrote: Consumer Reports doesn't agree with your opinion of Benny Moore paints.

My reply: I am a member at consumerreports.org and I checked. You're just WRONG. Consumer Reports rates Ben Moore as "Very Good" but it is also listed as "still under test." Furthermore, CR doesn't mention testing Ben Moore's best housepaint, which is what I was referring to.

"RicodJour" wrote: There is no way to reduce painting labor using the same equipment. The

way most people try to reduce painting labor is by cutting corners during the prep work.

My reply: The more you write, the more I see you have no idea what you're talking about. If you had ever painted much, you would know that there is a significant difference in labor applied depending on the quality of the paint. For instance, the better the hide on the paint, the better it sprays and flows, the longer it holds a wet edge, the better surface tension - all these and several other factors affect the labor applied. It should be obvious to anyone that labor is reduced when you don't have to re-paint as often (the coating lasts longer.)

It is equally as obvious to an painting professional that "cutting corners" only ADDS to the labor in the end (early failures, lost clients, etc) it doesn't reduce labor.

"RicodJour" wrote: I generally figure paint at roughly 10 to 15% of the job cost using good quality US paints, so it's not necessary for the Euro paint to last twice as long to reap benefits.

My reply: It completely depends on the job. You simply cannot generalize like that. There are jobs that are single level (no ladderwork) new pre-primed where labor is significantly less than a 100+ year old, 3 level craftsman house that's peeling. Sometimes paint is 5% of the total job cost (bear in mind I only use Ben Moore's best paint and it's not cheap) and sometimes it's 40%.

"RicodJour" wrote: Beyond the economics, there's the aesthetic criteria. You can't argue that a granite countertop is an unjustified expenditure based solely on

the fact that it costs more. When was the last time someone walked into a house and said, "Oooh! Plastic laminate!"?

Paint is the final, most visible part of the construction or remodeling

process. Not exactly the place where I'd start settling for "good enough". The Euro paints have textures and sheens that are different than what's generally available in the US. Some of the paints looks like suede, and others I can't describe. US paint manufacturers are entering that market with some of their designer paints, but the end result is not even close. It's a start, though.

My reply:

Well, no kidding. How it looks and performs is where it's at. I do not agree that the european paints "look" any richer or better than Ben Moore's Super Spec, for instance. I will agree that there is indeed a difference in the "look" or richness/consistency of color and sheen between "good" paint and cheap crap. It's something that people walking or driving by any of my work notice right away. It's a certain "glow" obtained when the prep work is done right, the right paint is applied correctly and the job is finished properly.

"RicodJour" wrote: One aspect you may have overlooked, something I can't, is the depth of color. The Euro paints use more pigment and more of them.

This part was especially interesting to me as I learned of a US manufacturer of high end paints that I was unaware of: " The Donald Kaufman Color Collection ($40 to $75 per gallon) is a set of 37 preblended "full-spectrum" paints. Whereas most paints use just three pigments and obtain a static color, Kaufman's paints use up to 12

pigments to create a paint whose numerous hues react to changing light with much of the same richness and range of color found in the natural world."

My reply:

I didn't overlook "color depth" - which really is about opacity. I could go into a long dissertation on paint color chemistry, but suffice to say that there is indeed a difference and it's visually obvious to almost anyone. Some flat paints look chalky and thin, some look rich and smooth but still are non-reflective as flat paint should be. I find that Ben Moore's paints achieve this look where others don't... except the most expensive coatings. The quality, consistency and other factors like 'grind' determine how pigment works, not just how many different pigment colors are used. If you think about it, how many pigment colors are used to obtain a particular color wholly depends on the color you want to get. I have never seen ANY paint that only uses three pigment colors.

Another factor to consider is how paint affects your spray equipment. Cheap paint typically has what we call a "high grind" - it is very abrasive - and it will wear out expensive valves in a hurry. That certainly adds to the cost of labor.

"RicodJour" wrote: I'll have to try some of their stuff. If it's cheaper to buy and gives

similar results as the more expensive Schreuder paints, I'll use it.

I reply: I suggest a side-by-side comparison (using Ben Moore.) I think you'll see little if any difference between two high quality paints. On the other hand, some of the paints Consumer Reports rate a good paints I wouldn't use for barn paint. Sometimes I have to use what a client supplies - and recently I had to use Behr paint (CR rates as a top paint) which was AWFUL CRAP. I had to repaint three times (which Behr eventually paid for) in order to get a desirable finish - the paint was somewhat translucent and had an extremely inconsistent sheen. I used every trick in the book to make it work and a rep from Behr had to come see for herself and she agreed with my conclusions. This only reaffirmed my belief that Ben Moore is a better paint.

---------

"jeffc" said what I wrote was:

A complete crock of shit. You don't compare "Benjamin Moore" paint to "Sherwin Williams" paint. There is no such thing. There is Benjamin Moore Regal and Sherwin Williams SuperPaint, etc. You can only talk about specific paints. BM makes good paint and they make crap paint. SW makes good paint and they make crap paint. It depends on how much you want to spend. For a "professional", you really don't know what you're talking

about.

I reply:

Yes, I do compare Benjamin Moore with Sherwin Williams at any grade. I only use Ben Moore's best paint and I would only compare that with Sherwin Williams best paint. There is no comaprison... Ben Moore is clearly better (and costs quite a bit more too) paint. I have not found ANY of Ben Moore's paint to be "crap" even their 'cheapest' contractor paints are decent. On the other hand, IMHO Sherwin Williams best paints aren't as good as Ben Moore's lowest cost paints. There is simply no comparison unless SW has completely changed their formulation in the last year or two. I refuse to work with the stuff.

So as for your rule that, "You can only talk about specific paints" normally I would agree however, with some brands of paint, -throughout their entire line- are inferior to other brands that seem to care more about the quality of their entire line of paint.

That's my opinion. Take it or leave it. It's only based on painting a few thousand buildings over a few decades.

-Jeff RicodJour wrote:

[RicodJour]

Jeff, trying to combine replies in one post is a nice objective, but omitting the > marks makes it difficult for people to read.

As far as the CR ratings. Benny Moore just cracked the top 20 on exterior paints and CR doen't even rate the Euro paints.

is far superior to most paint reviewers as they do long term testing. One of my pet peeves with the ratings is that some manufacturers "wised up" and started changing formulations (maybe just renaming?) so the long term results wouldn't be known.

The only points I had on this part of the thread is that prep work is paramount and one coat doesn't cut it. An easy flowing paint, or a higher hide paint won't eliminate a coat or any of the prep work and might save ten minutes in an average room. You're coming at this from a different end. A painter that paints eight hours a day is going to be very concerned with those ten minutes, and very concerned with saving one or two hundred bucks on a job because they do a lot of jobs and it really adds up. This newsgroup is for home repair. The OP is a DIYer. We're not setting someone up in business. The DIYer will waste far more time than those measly ten minutes due to lack of cutting in skills, having to mask off _everything_, lack of dedicated equipment, etc. Just as you wouldn't advise a DIYer painting their apartment to run out and buy an airless, or even rent one, I'm not worried about that ten minutes.

You're arguing with me about something we agree on? This is going to make it difficult to keep track.

Please note the qualifying words "generally" and "roughly". I was giving a general, rough, ballpark, estimated, seat-of-the-pants number. I am well aware that job conditions vary.

I have no doubt you do quality work. I was a little surprised when you tossed out the BM Super Spec. That's a contractor's paint, and generally not considered a premium paint. I've never used it. Do you feel that it is superior to BM's higher priced paints, or equal in quality at a lower cost?

I've never seen a 3-pigment paint, either. The part I quoted was to share my discovery of a lower priced premium paint manufacturer. Obviously any color _could_ be made from three colors, but most paint manufacturers use more.

And the finer the grind, the better the paint will cover and flow. Rheology is a bizarre, but highly cool, science.

I've run into a lot of old-timers that swear by Benjamin Moore, or Dutch Boy, or swear by oil paint - in general, come to think of it, they swear a lot. Nothing breeds confidence like success, and once people have reached their comfort level with success they stop looking for improvements. This is the natural state of things. Maybe I'm unnatural, but I never stop looking for improvement.

R

[jeffc]

I don't agree. First, it might take an hour to roll, but that's just one room. Also, it doesn't include cutting in. I know no one who can paint a room in one hour. Second, multiply that by all the rooms in the house (or for larger rooms or spaces).

A paint such as Sherwin Williams SuperPaint gives excellent coverage and usually goes on fine in one coat. (Obviously cherry red over white can't go on in one or probably even 2 coats). No, it's not as durable, but then 2 coats are not as durable as 3, and so on. The question is, how durable does it need to be exactly? A 100% acrylic paint with high solids is going to cover better and be more durable than a cheaper paint. Two coats of the $90 paint you were talking about seems outrageous. Even if it is that much more durable than a domestic $30 paint (which I'm skeptical of), it still probably doesn't matter. Good domestic paints will last almost indefinitely anyway for all practical purposes. The room gets painted before that anyway just because they want a change of color, or to "freshen up" the look.

[jeffc]

No, you were just referring to "Benjamin Moore", whatever that means.

No it's not, and no it doesn't.

[jeffc]

I agree there. To say there is "no comparison" between BM and SW paints is absurd. That is like saying you really like cola, but then saying you LOVE Coke but Pepsi makes you vomit violently.

[jeffreydesign]

Well, let me put it this way;

I have had to use client-supplied Sherwin Williams "SuperPaint" a half dozen times. Each and every time I found it to be inferior to what I normally use on exteriors (SuperSpec) and FAR inferior to Benjamin Moore's best exterior paint MoorGlo (for interiors, Aura - paint I highly recommend as well.)

I will no longer accept a job that specs Sherwin Williams. I just don't like the stuff, even their "best" paint. Maybe it's ok for Joe Homeowner but in a production environment, it just doesn't cut it. I happily warranty my work and I have learned what I can rely on.

I will warranty Ben Moore Paint (SuperSpec or [Regal] MoorGlo), Donald Kaufman Paint, Eurolux and Eco.

My work is as close to perfection as it can be and clients are willing to pay for it. I currently have a three-year waiting list for existing [mostly commercial] clients and a five+ year waiting list for new clients. My work speaks for itself.

-Jeff

jeffc wrote:

[RicodJour]

Sorry. You lost me with that last bit. I know of no client, no person, commercial or otherwise, that would be willing to wait years three to five years for a paint job. "Oh, hi, sorry about the lobby and the peeling paint. The painter is due here sometime in late 2009." Yeah, right. Those silly business owners are well known for their patience.

Even if you plan far in advance, complete a job and immediately schedule the repainting several years down the road, what about clients that do improvements? What do you say? "Sorry, can't be done. I know you just built an addition for the new baby, but we have to stick to the schedule."

Second nail in that coffin - if you have that long of a waiting list, and some rubes willing to wait that long, you don't know how to price your work. Are you hanging on to a 1992 Means book to do your estimating? Hell, give the work away for free. I'm sure you can get the waiting list up to well beyond your lifetime.

R

[krw]

I rather like BM paints, perhaps because I really like the service I get from the local store. However, I just did a bunch of pine clapboards and the "super spec" primer was iffy. The knots stained through the top coat (solid stain).

I am "Joe Homeowner" and have had less than stellar luck with SW. When the nozzle on a tube of caulk fell off and the calk went everywhere it shouldn't be I wasn't impressed.

I simply like BM's paints, particularity the interior stuff. I like the help I get from the local BM store. The End.

[jeffc]

Obviously it doesn't if you have to say it. Your bragging is doing all the speaking.

[jeffc]

He's really a bit full of himself.

[NickySantoro]

I've been in the business for over 40 years and I'll tell you what speaks for itself, that load of crap you are shoveling. I think you've spent too much time using oil based primer in closed spaces.