Must I gut the bathroom?

[dgk]

The house is around 70 years old, an 18' rowhouse. The bathroom is 5' x 11'. They built it with a stall shower and bathtub and the plan is to get rid of the shower and use the tub for both. That frees up space for a nicer sink/vanity which is a popular idea with a certain other member of the household.

Two contractors gave estimates for gutting the whole thing, and both are over $15k which is too much for us right now. The wall and floor tiles need to be replaced. Using the tub as a shower means more tiles around the tub, but does the whole thing really need to be gutted to the studs and floorboards?

As for the tub, it certainly has lost its shine, but reglazing (or rather, repainting) seems like a decent option:

Are the pipes going to the tub likely ok? It really hasn't been used much in the last 30 years or so, but it will be now. I'd hate to reglaze and then find that the thing needs to be ripped out to fix the pipes. I suppose that can be done from below (kitchen) anyway.

The wall tiles are stuck to what appears to be cement - it looks sort of odd, each 4" tile is stuck to around 3" of cement with gaps between the cement surfaces. The floor is just some stick-on 12" vinyl tiles stuck onto the original tile floor. I don't see why the vinyl stuff can't be pulled up and nicer tiles put down on the original surface.

The original sink, right now between the tub and toilet, would have to be removed and the pipes blocked off. The existing shower pipes would provide the basis for the new sink/vanity.

I know it would be better to just gut it, but money is quite tight right now. We're looking to retire in 10 years or so.

Any comments greatly appreciated.

[ransley]

Repainting a tub is the cheapest way and usualy has some peeling within a few years, tubs can be relined with a plastic, but for a big remodel and at that price just get a new tub, tubs are not as comfortable to use for a shower as a real shower. 70yrs old, 15000 , new plumbing is part of the job. What if the half rotten plumbing leaks in a few months, it will cost 4x as much as it would when its all opened up now.

[hrhofmann]

Can't you do any of the work yourself??

[Jules]

Hmm, I take it you don't want to be doing much - if any - of this yourself?

I think you need to replace the bath; painting won't last and if it's old the whole faucet mechnism's probably seen better days too (I take it your bath has a built-in fixed shower, which is why you're happy to lose the separate shower unit?).

1) Buy a new bath & faucet, get a plumber in to sort that out. That same plumber could chop the pipes to the shower and (temporarily) cap them, then you can rip the shower out yourself (saving a few $$). 2) Buy the new sink and fit it (or pay someone to do so), call plumber back to hook it up and remove/cap pipework to old sink. Pull out old sink and haul to the dump. 3) Pull up floor tiles, and/or remove wall tiles yourself. 4) Call in someone to fit new floor/wall tiles (skimming walls etc. as necessary)

Tile prices vary a lot (same for sinks, baths etc.), but $15k seems kinda high, so there's probably a lot of labor cost in there. Even if you're not comfortable with fitting new stuff, I expect you can handle some of the removal work yourself and save some cash that way; just sort out quotes and dates in advance so you don't end up with half a bathroom for months :-)

Are you putting in new lighting, outlets etc. too?

cheers

Jules

[LdB]

I'm already retired. A full bathroom renovation was my introduction to DIY. It was in my first house. Would have been well over 30 years ago.

You take one step at a time and live with the mess. All you really need is a working is the toilet. You don't even need water at the toilet, it can be filled with a pail or temporary hose. You can take a bath without plaster on the walls. Remove everything else all at once or only as you need to. I helped my son renovate his bathroom two years ago. It was completely gutted and replaced. Every fixture moved at least 6'. He was only without a working toilet for the time it took to remove the old cast iron drains and replace with new PVC.

The biggest problem is likely to be your significant other.

Ldb

[bambam]

You're moving plumbing in a seventy year old house. You already know there is no better time to upgrade and no real alternative to gutting the bath and replacing what's there. Anything else is just asking for problems down the road and since you intend to retire, you don't want that kind of excitement.

If you can stall for a couple of years till your financial situation improves, do it. If it absolutely has to be done now, then either DIY, find a neighbour or a friends who can DIY, or pay a contractor.

Here (Calgary, Canada), 15 thousand to remodel a bathroom, including moving fixtures around, would be considered a good down payment.

HTH

Ken.

[DD_BobK]

it you could post a couple photos on a hosting site it would give the guys in the newsgroup a better idea of what's up

where is the home located? 15k+ is in the ball park

Is this the only bathroom?

Has the house been re-piped? How long have you owned it? My SoCal

1930 home just got the last of the original glavanized steel water pipes replaced in 2006.

Complete demo is quick & easy and gives the contractor a "clean palette" on which to work. "Saving this" and "working around that" makes his life more difficult. Plus if you;re wanting a firm/fixed price all the "futzing around" is going to add uncertainty which he has to price in as contingency.

If this is your only bathroom (with a shower) it complicates the logistics.....if you have another functional bathroom, you could "poor boy" the job byt doing it in stages BUT your wife would have to be on board with that.

All sorts of compromises can (& most likely will be) done. Removing the stick-on floor tiles is doable, as is adding more tile to the floor BUT that will raise the floor a bit and if the exisitng floor is cracked, the cracks might telegraph through the new stuff.

I didn't understand your wall tile description.

I agree with the other posts.......showering in a tub is a PITA. Better to have a tub AND a shower than only a tub shower. Also how often is the tub used? Our single tub (we have two separate shower stalls) gets used less than once a month.

You've gotten a lot of good comments in the other posts.

cheers Bob

[Jon Danniken]

Okay, I'll bite, what's wrong with showering in a tub. I mean, sure, if you've got both, go for it, but I fail to see the problem with showering in a tub that has a proper surround.

Jon

[dgk]

I can take up the vinyl tiles - I put them down 15 years ago. I can pull the tiles off the walls - they're pretty much coming down on their own. I can probably take a sledge hammer to the old shower taking care not to muck the pipes. But putting stuff back up takes skill - not to imply that ripping things down doesn't.

[Ralph Mowery]

For years I had only showered in a tub. We bought a house with two full bath rooms. The one at the master bath did not suit my wife so we had it totally remolded. It was not big enough for a shower and separate tub. We just went to a shower in that bath as we almost never use a tub. I think I have only used it once or twice in over 30 years. My wife might use it once a month.

A walk in shower has an almost flat floor. As you get older you do not have to lift up your leg but a few inches. Also install a grab bar or two will make you feel safer. The floor is rough so not much of a slipping problem like a slick tub.

We used a man made marble for it. Three sides go from the floor to the ceiling. The door is glass. Easy to keep clean.

[Bob F]

None of it is rocket surgery. There are plenty of sources of good info to do it right.

Too many people never learn to do anything for themselves because they never take the chance to try.

I'm about ready to tile after my third major bath renovation. The second included my first mudset shower pan. I got most of the info for that from internet sources, and it turned out great.

[DD_BobK]

Jon-

There is nothing "wrong" with showering in a tub.

For me its a personal preference and my experience.

Most tubs are rather narrow, way less than the minimum 30" diameter of the typical shower stall. Fixed tub enclosures are typically small & confining. Of course switching to the curved shower curtain rod can really improve clearances.

The other thing hate about tubs (with enclosures) is hitting my head on the enclosure upper member or the curtain rod.

And the final snivel is having to step over the tub edge (while ducking under the curtain rod or enclosure beam).

Maybe if I was awake while attempting to shower all these issues would be moot.

cheers Bob

[aemeijers]

Narrow bothers me less than square, for most small shower stalls No place to step out of the stream. A tub-size long walk-in stall is nice.

If you are lucky and the tub is in the end of the bathroom, rather than along one wall, you can put the rod OUTSIDE the width of the tub. Makes a big difference, and I've had several people slap their forehead and say 'why didn't I think of that?' For a side-wall mounted tub without a deep ell, the curved rods are great.

You pick the mounting height for the rod based on how long the curtain is. You only need six inches or so inside the tub, it doesn't need to sweep the floor. Makes a big difference again. Also makes curtain dry quicker and mold less. Never seen a sliding-door tub enclosure with a door tall enough for anyone over 5'6''.

Not much you can do about this one, other than installing a handgrip. My sister and BIL's current place, the basement guest suite tub has a bottom higher than the floor. Stepping in is okay, but stepping out with wet feet just feels WRONG. I bought and installed a grab rail about the third day I was there.

Hell, I need the shower TO wake up.

-- aem sends...

[Michael B]

I think you're wrong, if you're willing to learn new skills. I redid mine for less than 1K. Actually more like $500. Big deal was the tile. The grout is the weak link. I took the wall out, filled the space with Styrofoam panels between the studs. Three different thicknesses to bring it to EXACTLY the same point as the inner faces of the wall studs. Then I used Greenboard, because it was not going to get wet, anyway. I used pure white silicone, because it's not paintable, resists staining and mold. I used a tile style that matched the silicone (Arctic Ice, no longer available, but similar ones are). I struck a line perfectly level the size of a tile plus an eighth inch. I put a 1x6 along that line, installed the tile up from that. Silicone squiggled on the back, and silicone at the sides mating to an already installed one, as well as silicone along the mating edge(s). Put it almost in place, wiggle it in that direction, let the extra silicone get squeezed out from between as it's being pressed firmly against the wall behind, rake off the extra with your finger and put it on the back of the next tile. Mine is over 15 years old, still looks as new as when I put it in. Scrubbing Bubbles does nicely on soap scum.

Oh, reason for starting a tile height above is that it is very rare for a tub or shower unit to be perfectly even, easy enough to ease a little off with the angle grinder and cement blade when you're easing in the bottom row, instead of trying to hide the errors further up.

Total cost of the shower surround, including the glass blocks that replaced the window, less than a hundred dollars, and the tiling went very quickly.

Plumbing? Hey, with Copper-Bond, I don't use my torch any more. And how about the water wall? Added some 2x2's to the existing 2x6's, made narrow shelves where wall had been, found 12 cabinet doors for cheap. Lets us use a pedestal sink. Which is located in a way that mirror glass on three of them, with the door row at the room corner having the hinges on the left, lets it work like a 3-mirror cabinet you could buy, but for a lot less.

We got a 5 ft double seat shower base from Lowes, set it into wet cement so it didn't wiggle, all kinds of other stuff, such as using a 5/8 inch grounding rod with a plastic cover for the shower bar.

Tiles on the wall? Rent a chipping hammer, use an angle grinder with a steel blade for the expanded steel backing, roll those tiles right out.

On Dec 2, 3:12=A0pm, dgk wrote:

[dgk]

...

Ok, as requested elsewhere, pictures:

I find that by the third time I do something I get pretty good at it. But this is the first time and it's my bathroom.

I do have a Home Despot not far away and can find out how to do some of this stuff, but that is one reason for the "do I have to gut the whole thing" question. This is all going to take time. If the thing has to be gutted, then it has to be done by someone who isn't learning along the way because we NEED a bathroom. There is a toilet downstairs but no shower. We can go to the nearby Rec Center for a shower, but that isn't a long term solution.

The first thing I thought I might be able to do is put in a shower body. Take a look at picture 100_0385. One thing I read was that for an older house with galvanized steel pipes I'm better off getting a plumber who'll have the tools to cut and thread the pipe. I have no idea what kind of pipes I have.

Or take these instructions:

I should remove the cover plate to expose the valve body. I don't have a cover plate. I have tile and cement. What I will do is bust off a few more of those tiles and see what it looks like behind it. No matter what, that will need to be done. I expected some kind of plasterboard and got cement. This house is weird. Every time I do something I find out just how weird.

So the plan is to get rid of the stall shower and put a nice vanity, sink, and towel closet there. I have no plans to move that toilet - it sits over the big pipe and will likely have to stay there unless we really gut the mess. The place taken up by the current sink (19" or so) will likely end up as a litterbox area. That means getting rid of the drain pipe which sticks out around a foot, as well as caping the water feeds.

Removing the shower is also going to leave me with a shower pan instead of a floor. That needs to be taken care of. I do not know how to replace a shower pan with a floor.

Then there is the electrial issue. Right now, the only outlet in the bathroom is from the light above the medicine cabinet. I have an external GFI outlet attached to it, and all the varous electrical things feed off that, but I'm sure not going to be the one who installs new outlets. I'm willing to play with water but not electricity.

Of cousre, if I can't just refinish the tub, or it's likely that the pipes will need to be replaced, then it's also a total gut job. I can't pull out that tub.

[dgk]

No, putting in a shower body is step 1 but I figured that would be realtively easy. I'll pull of a few more tiles and look at what's behind there tonight.

First picture is the current shower - no plate, just tile and cement.

If by new bath you mean ripping out the old tub and putting in a new one, that is a bit of a job. I was sort of hoping I could just refinish the current one. Having read more, I feel less confident that this is a good solution. Ripping out a tub apparenlty means total gut of the bathroom.

>

[hrhofmann]

From the looks of things, you will be better off gutting and starting over. Electrical isn't that hard unless you have to use conduit. Just turn off the power at the fuse/circuit breaker box before you do anything. Also, don't you have any handy neighbors? Where I live we have all sorts of non-white-collar-desk types who help each other out with plumbing, electrical carpentry, gardening, etc.

[Bob F]

You are probably going to have to re-do the tile in the tub area. If you are doing that, you might as well replace the tub. It'll look and last way better than a refinish job, and maybe cost less if you do the work.

You could re-do the tub first, then take out the shower, which will solve the no-shower problem.

The window in the tub area will be a problem for a shower there. Shower spray and windows don't necessarily work together. I finally installed a second shower curtain over the window to solve that on my rental house.

[aemeijers]

dgk wrote: (snip)

Sure you can. Just take out everything that doesn't look like a stud, and how to get the tub out will be obvious. It was the first thing to go in there, and it is the last to leave.

Like the others said, at this point, a gut job is the only logical way to go.

And if there is an open basement ceiling below, this is an ideal time to replace the old (probably semi-clogged iron) pipe as far back as you can, and run a dedicated breaker and circuit for modern electrics. Only adds a couple hundred to the cost, and they will be good for fifty years then.

-- aem sends...

[dgk]

Thanks all. The more I look into it, the more it looks like a gut job. The question becomes who should do it - I really don't think I'm the one. Maybe if I was retired and had lots of time.