May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons)

[SF Man]

That, I don't doubt!

I didn't design the setup. I simply bought it already set up.

The pool has to have both pumps running in order to clean because one runs the in-ground cleaning system while the other runs the filtering system.

You can't have one without the other; so both pumps must run.

The cleaning pump pushes all the mid-floating and sinking debris to the end of the pool which has a steep dropoff to 'trap' it all in place for the filter to pick it up.

The pool company told me it takes about a dozen hours to completely cycle the pool cleaning system so they recommended the 15 hours a day for both pumps.

Let's say I dropped the cleaning cycle to 12 hours a day, the next question is still whether to clean during the day or night.

Since there are mechanical solar heating panels, the obvious choice is to run the pumps during the day.

This was all pre-ordained before I bought the place.

[SF Man]

It's actually over 45 cents a KWh for the latter half of the month (only 12 cents per KWh for the first week or so).

The problem is that the pool cleaning is DESIGNED to have both pumps running. One is the filtering system which does NOT run the skimmers. The other runs the skimmers and the water jets built into the bottom of the pool to 'push' water to the deep end where the filtering system will pick it up.

So, whatever I do, it has to be TWO 2.2 HP pumps (yeah, I know, about 10 amps each) running for at least half a day. Otherwise the pool turns into mud.

[SF Man]

This pool is smaller, at less than 40K gallons, and the filter is a huge oil-filter-like contraption in a big black bubble about 4 or 5 feet tall.

There is no vacuum cleaning to speak of. I did buy some hoses to clean the pool manually but it ends up being a hassle because the pool was never designed for a vacuum.

If I added a vacuum, the builders told me, it would break the jets that pop up on the bottom of the pool anyway.

:(

[SF Man]

I did.

The pool turned to mud in a month.

First green algae took over the sides and then the water became cloudy.

Tons and tons and tons of chlorine later ... I'm back to running the pumps!

:(

[trader4]

I think you've already figured out what they do.

One is the breaker box where the electric for the system is coming in, through the breaker and on to the pump

One is the pump controller. Submersibles come in either 2 wire or 3 wire versions. The 3 wire ones use an external controller to energize the start winding to get the pump going. Hence they need a controller. The two wire type have that built into the pump. Apparently you have a 3 wire type.

One is the pump protection system that senses when the well runs dry and cuts off the power to avoid burning out the pump. That is what is apparently cycling the pump at 30 min intervals. But you say in another post that from other testing it appears that is about the recovery rate of the well anyway, so fiddling with the cycling time of this box, assuming that's possible doesn't sound likely to yield much in the way of improvement

One box is unused.

[trader4]

I agree it's not the problem. The problem appears to be that the well is only capable of a very low flow rate. You might be able to get a little more delivery out of it though by optimizing and adjusting the amount of time the pump is off after it runs out of water. It should not be off any longer than it takes for the well to recover. From what you've posted its sounds like it's already close to that anyway, but you might be able to cut the off time to say 25 mins and get more water per day that way. It wouldn't be a lot, but every bit helps I guess.

I don't know either. I made an error in my previous post. You said the 4th box has no "writing". I misread that as no "wiring" and hence said it was unused. It may be doing something. Taking the cover off and finding out what's inside would be a start.

If I had to take a wild guess, I'd say maybe a timer to cycle the pump so that it avoids running out of water. They might have had that before adding the electronic Pumptec safety. Open it up and take a look.

[G. Morgan]

I did not know that, thanks.

Can you accumulate credit with the power company for later use?

True that!

[G. Morgan]

I don't know much about pools, but I've heard it is better to run the filter/Polaris during the day. Makes sense, since we're trying to kill algae and they feed on light.

If you go full-solar you'll have a huge battery bank, transfer switch, and a giant inverter. It won't be cheap but hey, if you pole-mount the panels in the yard; you'll have less grass to water!

[SF Man]

60 x 15 = 900 sq ft

[SF Man]

The way PG&E works it out here, is that they don't charge you for electricity for the whole year. (Well, to be precise, they charge a nominal amount, I think it's less than $10/month, just to be in the program ... but that's a detail.)

All year, they keep track of what you use (we all have smart meters so they know what you're using instantaneously).

Then, on December 31st, they tally it all up:

- If you didn't generate as much as you used, you owe them some money

- If you brought it down to exactly zero, nobody owes anyone

- If you brought it below zero, they say thank you for the free electricity

[SF Man]

I think you've helped me clarify the three boxes - but the fourth is definitely used. There is 'stuff' inside the box. And, it's wired.

I don't know what that stuff is doing though ...

In daylight, tomorrow, I can snap a picture of the INSIDE of that fourth box to see what it does.

But, so far, we have this:

1. Box1 is the circuit breaker
2. Box2 is the controller for the 3-wire submersed well pump
3. Box3 is the dry-well pump-protection circuit (times out for 30 minutes)
4. Box4 is ???

[SF Man]

I would wholly agree with that sentiment.

It takes about a half hour just to get about 3 minutes to 5 minutes of well water.

Then it goes dry.

In fact, it might be helpful for me to change the setting to one hour, so as to cycle the pump less frequently.

I may devise a test to test that out.

[G. Morgan]

Heh, bummer!

[G. Morgan]

The more I think about that, the more it smells. Why would CA impose a law that would tend to -discourage- extra power generation? Sounds like the power lobby got their way with your politicians. Last time I looked, your state imports electricity from others. I guess all that "Green" bullshit coming out of the mouths of your politicians are just that.

Don't worry, our state is almost as screwed-up as yours! We are not broke, -yet-. And nobody wants wind-turbines in their backyard, so the same double-talk goes on here.

[trader4]

Yes, I agree that's a good idea. At least with the water available right now, it would be advantageous to find the optimum off time. If it turns out you get just about as much water per day cycling it once an hour, that would be less wear and tear on the pump.

[Caesar Romano]

On Thu, 18 Aug 2011 14:42:33 -0700, SF Man wrote Re Re: May I compare my well water setup to yours (3,094 usable gallons):

We pay 11 cents/Kwh for ALL or domestic electricity. But we have several nuclear plants generating the power for the past 40 years.

[trader4]

There is no point in doing a solar anything to run just the pool pumps. He has two 2 hp pumps that are pulling 10 amps each. That would require a 4.8KW system, which is the size of a small system for a whole house. If he goes with solar, just make it a true residential solar system that's tied to the whole house and grid.

[SF Man]

It's an interesting concept: Pump less to get more water!

But, if I put it at an hour (or even longer), and it still drops out BEFORE a half hour, then, I now understand, from what you're saying, that I'll likely get as much water with fewer pump iterations!

Seems to me, any delay period (1 hour, 1.5 hours, 2 hours, etc.), that results in water pumping for fewer than a half hour, is all equivalent in terms of water gain.

Right?

[SF Man]

I agree with you ... but ... when I looked it up when it was first suggested, I noticed something called "dc pumps".

I didn't do the math (I don't know the math) but somehow, they 'change' the pumps from my 220v AC pumps to DC pumps.

Solar 'seems' to work for those DC motors (but I haven't figured out the economics on that).

I'd still need the 2.2 horsepower per pump so I tend to agree with you. Better to put the effort into solar panels and not into a separate pump system.