I've thought along those lines given the price of Denalis:
You get the mounts, wiring harness, relay, and dimmer module but $380 is
still a stiff price. However 2 10W LEDs do shed a bit of light.
You may be right. In some palaces though, the low price is by utility
subsidies that can go away. I bought one of each size we use as a spare
In any case, no one can complain the price is too high to make the
change and save on the electric bill.
I don't think we were ever *given* any, outright. But, we've been able
to buy them for $0 at local stores (rebates).
We tend not to have problems with low temperatures... :>
But, the CFL's take longer to start as they age. And, they
don't come on at full intensity, initially (as they age).
I've got a carton of LED floodlights (spotlights?) that I'd like
to try installing in the garage (in recessed cans). But, the ceiling is
so high that I think I would have to space them too close together to
get uniform light coverage. Or, replace them with greater output
bulbs (which means the ones I have are useless, in either case!)
The garage lights go on and off a dozen times or more, EVERY day
(in and out of the car -- even if the car never leaves the garage,
access to the freezer out in the garage, access to my files, spare
parts, cables, etc.). So, tubular flourescents (currently in place)
tend to fail quickly. CFL's would suffer from slow starting and
intolerance of the temperature extremes. Incandescents are costly
(energy) to light such a large space *well* (many people seem content
to have dark garages; I want to be able to *work* in mine!).
So, LED seems the logical choice.
Are the present lights hard wired or plug into a ceiling mounted
receptacle? If plug in. it would be easy to get the adapters to try a
couple. If they are anything like my outdoor floods you will get plenty
of light from them
I've tried just holding them up near the ceiling to get an idea as to how
much usable light they throw. The beams are too narrow (in cans) and
the floor too far away. I'd have to dot the ceiling with lots of
cans to cover the length and width.
The (current) tubular fluorescents throw light in essentially all
directions. So, more "general" coverage (light reflecting off walls,
I'd thought of "tubular LED" replacements but that just strikes me as
so much a kludge...
But a strip of low wattage LEDs in a "light bar" makes sense because they
can tolerate a few failures before the total light output becomes too dim to
be useable. Mount them in standard packages that can draw power from a
fluorescent ballast . . . Hey, off to the patent office you go!
I have been thinking about replacing the 48" shoplights in the basement. My
wife says they flicker but I do like the nice, even diffuse light they
produce even if it seems I am replacing ballast all the damn time.
There are actually direct drop-in LED tubes that can replace
fluorescent lamps without rewiring. Of course I first found
out about them when the CPSC announced a recall of them..
Yes, they still work through the ballast. And yes, I get
very painful headaches in visualizing how this works.
More common is a two or four fott LED tube which fits
in the fluorescent fixture, BUT where it's hooked up
directly to the 120V (in US) AC line. In other words,
you disconnect the ballast and run the utility wires
directly to the lamp holder clips at each end.
Roughly twice as efficient as the fluorescent system
(i.e. half the wattage for the same light) AND they
work fine in the cold.
NOTE: this is actually a great format for LEDs. The Big Problem
with getting a decent amount of light from them is heat buildup.
Even though they're much more efficient than incandescent,
they still produce heat... so anything above the equivalent
of a 40 watt incendescen - 8 or so watt LED, requires
heat fins and venting and painful annoyances.
If instead of using the incandescent lamp form factor
you (the manufacturer...) goes for two foot tubes, the
heat is disspiated over a much larger area, so you can
pump in more watts and get more light.
The LED quivlant of a twin-40 sells for 30 or so dollars.
Well worth it.
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
OK, Don, cancel the trip to the Patent Office. )-:
Hmm. After I wrote that message I started thinking about just how you would
power LEDs from the fluorescent ballast. I'll have to look that up because
I am very interested in switching to LEDs entirely. Even though shoplight
bulbs are cheap, they still contain mercury and even though much of the
mercury in the ocean comes from Chinese and Indian coal-fired power plants,
every little bit that doesn't sneak in some how has to help.
I could do that, I've changed enough failed ballasts that it would be a
piece of cake.
Sold and Double SOLD! Thanks very much for the pointer. I'll report back
on what I find.
Precisely. I took an old piece of shelving, spaced out 5 porcelain flush
mount sockets and wired it so that it generally lit up the same area but it
still wasn't as diffuse as a fluorescent tube.
My friend in AZ has been struggling for years trying to find reliable LED
path lighting and heat dissipation is indeed a serious problem for LEDs. I
wonder if we'll ever have truly "cold" light that radiates just visible
light and very little heat.
On 8/23/2015 10:45 AM, Robert Green wrote:
Naw, I've got this PERPETUAL MOTION MACHINE that I'm convinced is
going to revolutionize modern industry! It works on the same
principle as Escher's "Waterfall" -- but 37.4% more efficient!!
It's not really practical. The ballast runs at many hundreds of volts
with very low current. So, you're taking something that was autotransformed
*up* and now trying to bring it back *down*. Conversion == losses.
I decided that it wasn't going to be worth the effort to salvage a cheap
I have 6 or 8 "retractable cord reels" (?) that I plan on installing
on the garage ceiling. This would allow me to "pull an outlet down"
wherever I need one (the walls are inaccessible as they are lined,
floor to ceiling, with industrial shelving).
I figure, at that time, I'll install some new fixtures alongside each
of the cord reels and make *one* big remodeling mess instead of *two*!
You just have to remember not to put a regular fluorescent lamp in
You can use a diffuser in front of the lamps. But, to be effective, the
diffuser has to be set apart from the lamps -- cutting down on your
usable space. It's my garage lighting problem, again: need point sources
to be high up (to throw light more uniformly without requiring a multitude
of fixtures). But, then they need to be *brighter*...
E.g., we have 8 ceiling fixtures in the living room that bathe the
room pretty uniformly. The ceiling is only slightly higher than nominal
(floor is actually lower). Had the ceiling been 12 ft or more, the
lights would have been ineffective. You'd need far brighter ones
(for the same spacing) -- and then would burn your retinas each time
you happened to glance up at one!
[This is one of my pet peeves against LED point lighting. My eyes don't
"recover" like they did when I was younger]
We've (AZ) not had any problem with the token path lighting ("landscape
lighting") fixtures, here. Light is a slightly different color...
Heat is proportional to voltage across the lamp and current through it.
You need "power" to make light. The question is: how much power to make
how much light?
[I suspect there are some chemical lights that run cool. But, probably
I am on the edge about it. I like the diffuse light but the newer
higher-efficiency ones really do flicker.
Sounds like a plan. I am still enamored of the LED tube replacement even it
if means rewiring the cord and disconnecting the ballast.
I hear you. It's a conundrum.
For some odd reason in addition to the walkway lamps burning out frequently
for some odd reason the scorpions seemed to like them, too.
Yes, I believe bioluminescence is quite cool but also quite dim, usually
very green and obviously not easily rechargeable. But I think it points
towards a future technology where heat won't be as much of a problem and
almost all of the power a bulb consumes is emitted as visible light. We've
been slowly walking down that path for the last 100 years so it seems almost
I tried that approach, initially. But, the little bugger kept trying to
extort money from me! Kept threatening to kill Schrodinger's cat! I
never got up the nerve to peek in the box to see if he carried out
his twisted threats!! Sick little bugger! :-/
I'm very sensitive to light, shadow, reflection, etc. E.g., when I installed
the overhead lighting in the kitchen, I very carefully considered where
I would be standing when *needing* the light most (e.g., food prep,
cooking, etc.) to ensure their placement wouldn't end up casting shadows
(*MY* shadow!) in my work area!
(!!) Hmm, I haven't noticed that. I rarely have to "service" the fixtures
so, for all I know, they could be *packed* with scorpions! The incandescent
bulbs we've used in these places haven't lasted long at all. But, then
again, I was using 20W units so they might naturally be short-lived.
I haven't seen Schrodinger's cat since Pavlov's dog starting hanging around.
I'm afraid to look in the box.
I really don't know - they are sealed and I just swap them out. I'll look
more carefully if I decide to keep them. I just know there are green ended
bulbs, narrow tube bulbs, metal ended bulbs. I suppose I should go to
Google and figure it all out but the fixtures aren't very well marked so I
am not even sure what I would be able to determine what was what.
That's why I am so found of my 100 LED "showerhead" flashlight. The four
inch diameter head is broad enough for the LEDs to cast a very eery (but
easy to see with) light that doesn't have the harsh shadows of other
flashlights with much smaller light sources. Plus the bluish tint really
counteracts the aging yellow eyeball problem. They aren't well-made,
unfortunately, and many have failed. But they are so well-suited to the
task I just keep buying replacements. Harbor Freight sells one that came
sealed tight (not a return) with 3 of the 100 LEDs already DOA. I could
live with that if the LEDs were bluish, not yellowish and if the battery
compartment contacts didn't fall out after the first use.
That's a heart-warming thought. Last month I saw a small paper hornet's
nest on the side of the house. By the time I got to it last night it was
the size of a human head. I got to use the yellow Tyvek jumpsuit, face mask
and respirator I bought as a Halloween costume (Walter White of Breaking
I forget what sort of bulbs he was using but I do recall they soaked up the
heat all day long and that he had to use fairly well-sealed (meaning poorly
ventilated) units to keep the scorpions and other vermin out. I think it
eventually turned out that all the bulbs he bought were from a defective
batch. The early adopters get the arrows in the back, just like the Old
Damn dog... drooling all over the place! And who the hell hung that
**BELL** on his collar???
Until you do, we can, at least, *pretend* all is well!
[I wonder if even *listening* for a tell-tale purr is considered risky?]
I think the replacements make the most sense when you have things
like "in-ceiling fixtures" as are common in businesses. For a "shop light
hanging on chains", I think you have more options.
I am not fond of HF products. I might buy an *anvil* from them
(i.e., just a block of steel!) but the more "involved" the tools
get, the less confidence I have in their offerings.
[I used to work for a major US hand-tool manufacturer so I see lots of
"issues" in their products that never would have made it through our
That said, I have several of their disposable DMM's lying around the house.
They're small and a lot easier to use than my bulky 6.5 digit DMM :-/
If it was otherwise reliable, you could try (?) replacing the LEDs.
IMO, the toughest part of a product is the packaging.
ROTFL! Yeah, critters don't stop working just because you've turned your
I cut down a tree some years back. I was slow getting the last of the
"cut logs" out of the back yard. When I got around to it, termites had
eaten the underside of the log out!
Why keep the critters out? Were they interfering with the light
distribution or cosmetics? If they only represent a problem when
he has to *open* the enclosure, just do so with gloves on, etc.
Our fixtures are essentially open at the bottom. So, something *could*
crawl inside. But, unless they crawled on top of the bulb, we'd never
be able to detect that without disassembling the fixture.
Photos of a Costco twin-pack of Feit brand four foot LED tubes
that somehow or other are drop-in replacements for fluorescents
and work through the ballasts. As I said elsewhere, my head hurts
trying to visualize the wave forms...
Dunno. They could transformer couple to get down to a better working
voltage. *Or*, just rectify and chop *that* (buck regulator) to
feed the LEDs.
I'd be interested to know how efficient the system is -- watts in
vs. watts delivered to the LEDs. I suspect there are still
some issues (I know there have been some recalled products from
"dangerous overheating" -- which suggests too much lost in heat
in the process!)
Now you have me worried. I was just about to hit the local Home Depot but
burned up lamps do not have a high Spouse Approval Factor. We've had
several of the older CFL self-immolate and though nothing caught fire, the
house stank of burning plastic for days.
That's why it's important to know the internal circuit topology.
Most consumer kit is frighteningly marginally designed. Micropennies
become significant! So, often things are designed on the bleeding
edge in terms of performance (er, "safety").
I've encountered LCD monitors from (what you would *think* were)
respectable manufacturers (HP?) that were actually *fire* hazards!
(with this eventually publicly acknowledged). Imagine the monitor
on which you are reading this "suddenly" catching fire! :-(
"Honey, the computer's on fire!"
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