Leaky Toilet Flapper

[Boris]

Toilet is 2-piece.

Toilet was flushing and refilling fine, but the wax gasket had to be replaced because it was dried up after many years, and leaked.

When removing the tank, the gasket on the underside of the tank on the flush valve, ripped. I couldn't find a proper replacement, so I had to purchase an entire new flush valve with gasket, FluidMaster 400. I installed everthing successfully.

But, the flapper leaked and the tank kept slowly (about 20 minutes) emptying into the bowl, and then the fill valve refilled the tank. This kept repeating.

I shut off the water supply, and let the tank slowly drain. It stopped draining when the water level got just below the flapper. I contacted FluidMaster, and they said the flapper was defective, and I'd have to jump through hoops to get a new one under warranty. I said no thanks.

I bought a replacement flapper by the same manufacturer, FluidMaster, and it leaked. I bought a new flapper by another manufacturer, Korky, and it leaked. I bought a whole new flush valve with flapper, and it leaked at the flapper.

I've replace many toilets and their innards, and have never had this problem.

Any ideas what's going on here?

TIA

[Ed P]

May not be the flapper. Drain tank, remove the flapper and check the are that is goes against to seal. There may be a mineral buildup that prevents it from seating properly. Clean it off well and try again.

[Boris]

Ed P [e-mail] wrote in news:4ZJKM.361354$ [e-mail]:

Hi, Ed,

All parts are new, so no mineral buildup.

When I took out the new FluidMaster flush valve, I did notice that the flapper was slightly warped and that's why it didn't seal properly.

Before installing the second flush valve, I examined the seal between flapper and valve, and all looked tight. But, once installed, it leaked at flapper.

I've replaced toilet parts for 50 years, when needed. This has me baffled. Time for a new toilet?

[Ed P]

Did you replace the tank? If not, all parts are not new.

[retired1]

Could the chain from the lever be too tight, slightly lifting the flapper enough to have a leak ? Chain should have some slack.

[Boris]

retired1 [e-mail] wrote in news: [e-mail]:

FluidMaster,

There's about 1/4"of slack. I can even take the chain off and let the flapper lie on the outlet flange alone, and still leaks. I've tried three different flappers on two different flush valves, and still leaks at the bottom lip of all flappers.

Thanks for the thought.

[Dean Hoffman]

What else is there? Suppose the tank is draining through the overflow tube. Could something at its base cause the same symptom?

[TimR]

That seems a little strange. I've replaced the gasket between tank and bowl on several toilets. (If I'm moving a toilet, for the wax seal or to snake the line, I always separate the tank and bowl. I've watched real plumbers and they never do, they lift both as a unit. I'm pretty sure I would drop it that way. And I always replace the gasket when I do that.) But anyway, the tank gaskets on mine have been separate from the flush valve seal.

By weird coincidence I was working on mine today, a slow leak down and refill, and I found a good graphic that showed all the places toilets normally leak. I'd share it but I can't find it again. The advice was to check the toilet every 15 minutes and find what level it stops draining; you know the leak is above that. Places they suggested to look were the overflow tube (if the little hose goes too far down it can siphon), cracks in the overflow tube itself, leaky tank connection bolts, crack in the tank, flapper not closing, and flush valve seal to the tank. I knew my flapper wasn't fitting tight but I was glad to confirm the water didn't go below there, so the flush valve gasket itself is okay.

By the way, I don't turn the water off for flush valve jobs. I hook a rubber band around the fill valve float and stretch it to the tank handle.

In my case, I have an American Standard 4049 tank, and the correct assembly was in there, but the flapper (it's called an actuator seat disc on this toilet) was worn. The big box stores don't carry them, you have to buy the whole kit, but i ordered from Amazon.

[Thomas]

Something I would try, don't laugh. Put a shitload of vaseline on the ring and flapper where they seal. Wait to see if it still leaks. You may need a heavier flapper.

[invalid unparseable]

Do not see anyone mentioning that a bolt anchoring tank to toilet may have failed. I have had to replace several of these but leak is to the floor.

[Clare Snyder]

Time to hire a plumber??

[TimR]

This is a good test. If that stops the leak you know it's the flapper to ring contact for sure.

And that's what I did. I know I need a new seal disk, and I couldn't get one locally. But I cleaned the existing disc and smeared on some vaseline, and that will hold until Amazon sends me new ones.

But my flapper disc was worn, and had been gradually getting worse. That is not the case for the OP. His toilet worked fine until he replaced the wax seal. So something unexpected got damaged in the process.

[Boris]

Frank <"frank "@frank.net> wrote in news:udg8s1$3o0jq$ [e-mail]:

and bowl on several toilets. (If I'm moving a toilet, for the wax seal or to snake the line, I always separate the tank and bowl. I've watched real plumbers and they never do, they lift both as a unit. I'm pretty sure I would drop it that way. And I always replace the gasket when I do that.) But anyway, the tank gaskets on mine have been separate from the flush valve seal.

refill, and I found a good graphic that showed all the places toilets normally leak. I'd share it but I can't find it again. The advice was to check the toilet every 15 minutes and find what level it stops draining; you know the leak is above that. Places they suggested to look were the overflow tube (if the little hose goes too far down it can siphon), cracks in the overflow tube itself, leaky tank connection bolts, crack in the tank, flapper not closing, and flush valve seal to the tank. I knew my flapper wasn't fitting tight but I was glad to confirm the water didn't go below there, so the flush valve gasket itself is okay.

rubber band around the fill valve float and stretch it to the tank handle.

assembly was in there, but the flapper (it's called an actuator seat disc on this toilet) was worn. The big box stores don't carry them, you have to buy the whole kit, but i ordered from Amazon.

No. Tank bolts are tight, and leak is not to the floor. It's from the tank to the bowl. The tank water leaks and lowers, and while doing so, you can see small ripples in the bowl water. The leak is *definitely* from the tank to the bowl.

[TimR]

Then it seems to me there are (at least) three places it could leak, in order of likeliness:

1. Connection of flapper seat to the tank
2. Fit of flapper to flapper seat
3. Crack in overflow tube.

Most of the time we assume #2, and most of the time that's correct, but in this case the leak appeared suddenly after disassembly of tank and bowl.

On one of my toilets I replaced the flapper valve with a Fluidmaster, and the flapper seat/bottom had to be sealed to the bowl with plumber's putty or something like that, I forget details. It was difficult to get a good seal and I had to fiddle with it periodically.

Some years later when my regular plumber was over I had him look at it. He yanked out that stuff and replaced with an actual OEM American Standard assembly, and said it was a pain getting the old caulk off. I don't know how that one went on but now the flapper portion is a separate piece.

[invalid unparseable]

It has been years but I replaced everything on tank including seal between tank and toilet. Of course I had to take off the tank to do this.

Over the years as all toilets developed problems I had them all replaced with then newer ones that use less water as one big advantage was less going to septic.

[Wade Garrett]

Maybe a rough or high spot or debris/deposit on the flapper's seat that needs smoothing? The seat not being flat/parallel with the flapper?

[Scott Lurndal]

Probably one of the best arguments for one-piece toilets.

[Boris]

[e-mail] (Scott Lurndal) wrote in news:RC0LM.1449509$GMN3.776026 @fx16.iad:

I installed a one-piece Toto in one bathroom when remodelling. Expensive ($600) and heavy, but works great.

[Boris]

TimR [e-mail] wrote in news: [e-mail]:

Tim, that was the cause. I had placed the refill tube inside the overflow tube, apparently too far down, and siphoning occured.

4) "However, if the spray tube goes too far down into the overflow tube, it can siphon water from the tank. It took a long time to realize this is what was happening to mine, as all components were new and functional. I just had to back the spray tube further up the pipe so that it would still drop properly. Fixed the siphoning and therefore eliminated the wasted filling."

As soon as I pulled the refill tube up a little, leaking stopped.

The refill tube, even when down in the overflow tube, wasn't so far down that it was in water, so I don't understand how siphoning was happenning. I just don't see the physics of how this was happenning, and why did the leak test show the leak was at the flapper?

It was obvious that water was leaking out of the tank, and into the bowl. As the water level in the tank went down, I could hear the leak and see water run down the side of the bowl as evidenced by rippling. Once the tank water level got down to the flapper level, leaking stopped, rippling stopped.

cracks in the overflow tube itself, leaky tank connection bolts, crack in the tank, flapper not closing, and flush valve seal to the tank. I knew my flapper wasn't fitting tight but I was glad to confirm the water didn't go below there, so the flush valve gasket itself is okay.

I've done that, too.

Thanks for the reply. Yours is what made me re-consider that the refill tube was the cause. Live and learn.

[retired1]

Re the physics of siphoning, the little "bowl" refill pipe is pulling water from the big regular tank refill pipe, and sending it down the overflow pipe.

The water coming down the overflow pipe goes into the flapper valve body, just below the flapper, and into the bowl. That's why it "looks like" the the flapper is leaking.