Latest AC story

Sure, he did what I asked him to do. Took a chance and so far I'm winning. Nice and cool in here.

You have to lay it out to the customer. These are the costs and the potential results. Or we can just replace it all.

Look at it the same with a five year old car. What is the cost of a transmission? Fix it and what if the engine goes? Where do you stop tossing money at it and scrap it?

In the case of my 2001 Buick, I bought a new car in 2006 and the Buick became my wife's car. Couple of years later it was deteriorating so fast I gave it away. Long list of things going bad, expensive things.

Every GM car I bought new needed warranty repairs within the first couple of months. I've had 3 Sonatas and one needed one repair under warranty after 2 1/2 years and 57,000 miles.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski
Loading thread data ...

Depends where you take it. Unscrupulous repair shop would fix it for you for $3000.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

I'll bet in the typical homeowner scenario the HVAC guys wind up eating the $600. Typical customer is going to say you didn't fix it, I'm not paying.

I agree. But that kind of analysis is beyond many homeowners today. That existing system was probably worth $3000 when new. Assuming it lasts 15 years, then 5 years in, it's worth ~$2000. So figure out how much you're willing to spend to try to fix something that worth $2000. And then there are a dozen forks in the decision path, possibilities, etc. You could discuss all those whatifs, and then when you hand them a bill for $600 and the system isn't fixed, I think in plenty of cases, whatever you told them is going to be forgotten and they aren't going to pay you. But I would also think that on the first service call they would at least go looking for the leak. How long can that take? I would think

30 mins they could do a quick once over of the accessible parts of the system. If they find it, then you have a good starting point to figure out what to do. But clearly the two or more companies they called in weren't going to do that.
Reply to
trader_4

Respectfully disagree, Mr. Hwang. To be able to protect yourself from fraudsters typically requires having a lot of information and education the average person just doesn't have. It's not just a problem with cars, but with home repairs, choosing doctors, etc.

Say you're on the NJ Turnpike and you stop for gas and while you're getting fueled you go to the men's room. When you come back to the car, a mechanic, acting like a genuine hero, says (after sprinkling iron filings) your fan belt is going to fail in very short order. If you're the average guy and not much of a mechanic, you'd think about what happens if your fan fails somewhere further down the road, or at night and perhaps decide to let him "adjust it."

I wouldn't say most everywhere, but it's getting more and more prevalent as technology gets more and more complicated. Compare the Chrysler Air Temp furnance (from the 40's) that was here when I moved in. I could fix it myself because it was utterly simple. Not so the modern furnace. How many people (outside of AHR) know what a draft inducer motor is or why such a (relatively) cheap item could cause total furnace failure?

I used to, too but age has curtailed a lot of my ability to do things like crawl under cars. Worse, yet, when I watch people work I often shudder at how poorly they've been trained.

(-; You "sinister" person, you!

formatting link

In the study of origins, it was always better to be "right" than wrong, or even "left"! Words associated with the right side are generally complimentary or have signified something desirable, but those pointing to the left are quite the opposite. For example, even in modern times, everyone tries to get up on the "right" side of the bed and hopes to stay on the "right" side of one's boss; that is, if the person is in his/her "right" mind.

Other languages reflect the same bias in favor of the right and against the left. In Latin, the word for "right" is dexter, from which has come the English word dexterous or dextrous; meaning "skillful". This is what a person who uses the "right" hand is expected to be.

An ambidextrous person should be even more skillful, since he is described as having two "right hands.

On the other hand, the Latin sinister is the left hand, that is, the wrong hand. Furthermore, left-handers were thought to be unlucky.

In Roman augury, or fortune telling, birds that appeared on the left side were interpreted as being bad luck; however, those on the right side presaged good luck. Now, in modern English applications, sinister means evil or ominous.

"Lefties" have not been regarded with a positive attitude even in French and Old English The French word for "left" is gauche (GOHSH), which indicates awkwardness or lack of social graces. "A guest who drinks from the finger bowl, no matter how dexterously he handles it, is still gauche."

English also has favored the right over the left. The word "right" developed from Old English riht, which meant "to lead straight; to guide; to rule." Left evolved from Old English lyft, which meant "weak".

English prejudice against the left can be seen in such terms as "two left feet", meaning "awkward", and "left-handed compliment", which is not considered as a compliment!

-Excerpts from The Story Behind the Word by Morton S. Freeman; iSi Press; Philadelphia; 1985; pages 228-229.

Reply to
Robert Green

Except for their massive loss of reputation when the word gets out. My AC was 40 years old and still working just fine when a 5? year old system was replaced in the house 2 doors down and the unit literallyu dropped in my lap. Figured it was as good a time as any to change it. (same age as my "new" furnace (which I had replaced at the same time the neighbour had A/C installed).

Ends up they had the furnace replaced and the HVAC guys sold him an "entire system". His loss, my gain.

Reply to
clare

Yes, there are lots of ways to detect leaks and I would certainly entertain one of them before I forked out $5K for a new unit to replace one that's only 5 years old.

Precisely. In reading about service companies that rip people off, it seems a common practice is to replace a unit like that, take it back, clean it up, and sell it as new. Here's another excerpt from

formatting link

Reply to
Robert Green

Don't they have an unsually good warranty compared to US cars? That would inspire them to keep overall costs down by building them correctly in the first place!

Reply to
Robert Green

And you know how these systems work. Imagine being a poor schlub that doesn't know one bit about A/C and has to depend on the technician's word that what he says is wrong is actually true. One thing's for sure. The next time a tech comes out, I am going to set up one of my covert CCTV cameras to make sure he's not up to any hanky-panky.

Agreed. The fact that they went straight to the new system without testing for leaks pretty much tells me they're out to replace, not to repair.

There's an old IBM joke about flat tires that covers this:

A salesman, a mathematician, and a computer programmer are driving down the road when the car they are in gets a flat tire. The mathematician says they should sell the old tire and buy a new one. The computer programmer says they should drive the car around the block and see if the tire fixes itself. The salesman says that they should buy a new car.

Reply to
Robert Green

Tech did not do leak test B4 recharging? It all depends what the exact problem is. Leak can be repaired but if it was where another leak could occur... Tech has to discuss with owner with honesty. Also higher efficiency unit will save money over time. I have Puron high efficiency unit which has been running for 5 years without an issue. Every spring I just do basic maintenance(mainly cleaning the unit and check Delta T at ODU and indoor). So far it's been 18 degrees F or little higher meaning it's doing OK. I use 16x25x5 MERV 11 filter every 6 months. Some times I switch to EAC. I feel sorry about a consumer who does not know anything about anything.

Reply to
Tony Hwang

Today's tranny is little more complex being multi speed and TCU controlled. 10 speed auto with slap stick is not uncommon or CVT.

Reply to
Tony Hwang

Didn't that hurt, to have a system literally dropped in your lap? I mean, the outdoor unit has to be 200 pounds or so. Did they drop the evaporator and line set at the same time, literally on your lap?

Were you at least sitting in a soft chair?

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

Let's not romanticize the past. Chimney shakers and other scam artists have always been with us. My ma sicced the States Attorney after a chimney shaker 50 years ago. Got her money back too.

Reply to
Vic Smith

Everything is 5 year 60, drive train is 10 years 100,000 I'm on my third one and every body joint is perfectly aligned, good paint, etc. I'm waiting for the 16's to come out and may get a new one.

Reply to
Ed Pawlowski

That's the problem. I've been trying to come up with a reliable national figure for heating and cooling scams, but haven't found it yet. What I have found is example after example of TV stations investigating and finding clear examples of fraud. It's just too easy to scam someone who is completely uneducated in the subject matter. But is it reasonable for a 60 year old widow to be an A/C mechanic? There are also an awful lot of former employees who tell how easy it is to screw up a customer's A/C so they end up selling them a new system.

No doubt about that. Same with refrigerators, too. But there's a perplexing problem that's yet to be solved with high-E units: they have more breakdown points embedded in them. You didn't need a circuit manual to figure out the old Chrysler Air Temp's circuitry but its efficiency was horrible.

I'd say a lot of people here do their own coil drop tests, etc. but that's not reflective of the general population.

Me too. But asking some people to evaluate HVAC techs would be the same as asking me to evaluate nuclear techs. As I was researching the subject I came across a pretty useful guide to HVAC scams:

10 Tips for Avoiding Heating and Air Conditioning Scams in the Atlanta Area

Whether your air conditioner died in the middle of a heat wave or your furnace is on the fritz on a chilly winter night, you're just happy to see a repairman.

But don't let your need for comfort blind you. There are some untrustworthy contractors who take advantage of homeowners who are desperate for quick repairs.

Follow these tips to avoid being scammed by contractors in the Atlanta area.

1) Ask for old, broken parts that were supposedly replaced Some contractors may charge you for parts they didn't actually replace. To prevent this, ask the contractor for the old, broken part after it has been replaced. 2) Watch out for "free" tune-up offers According to the BBB, a reputable contractor will offer you a free estimate as a part of the typical sales process. But less scrupulous companies might trick you by offering a "free" tune-up in order to make a high pressure sales pitch. 3) Beware of those asking for large amounts money upfront Some contractors ask for a down-payment (which is fine). But if a contractor asks you to pay him or her for the entire job before work is done, then hang up and try someone else. 4) Get 2-3 estimates before deciding Get cost estimates from at least 2-3 contractors before making your decision. This gives you options, leverage and an average price to work with. Trustworthy contractors don't mind giving free, no-obligation estimates for a heating or air conditioning installation job. 5) Don't get scammed on Freon Freon is what helps your air conditioner do its job. It's expensive, so certain contractors will try to find ways to get you to buy more than necessary or give it to you for "free", but in essence include it in the price of some other repair. For one, if you're A/C is low on Freon, chances are there's a leak because an A/C unit does not naturally lose Freon. If they merely fill your A/C up with Freon and don't offer to perform a leak search, you may be getting scammed. Also, have the contractor stay awhile as you test your A/C to see if it's working properly after the contractor says he or she is done. 6) Troubleshoot first If you can solve the problem yourself, then the chances of being scammed go down because you won't have to hire anyone at all. Research the symptoms of your problems online before calling for service. You can even use us as a resource by asking one of our experts for help. 7) Get it in writing Getting everything in writing will prevent the crafty bait and switch. So before a contractor starts working, make sure you have a written contract which details: Start and completion dates Itemized list of materials Payment penalties for not completing the job on time 8) Know if you really need to replace or just get it repaired Don't get suckered into replacing your A/C or furnace if you don't need to. Read our brief article: "How Do I Know If I Should Repair Or Replace My Current Heating And Air Conditioning System?" to learn more about this. 9) Read reviews and ratings online Good people get good reviews and ratings. Enough said. As you're looking for your 3-4 estimates, look up reviews on Yelp and Angie's List, and find their BBB rating. 10) Know what a quality heating and cooling contractor looks like If you know what a quality contractor looks like, spotting a potential scammer is easy. Quality contractors are: Insured NATE-certified Careful to survey your problem first and then give a final estimate, not vice versa Patient when explaining why they're repairing and charging you for something Local and work full time in an office--not part-time in their home's garage. Have a problem with your heating and cooling system in the Atlanta area? Contact us online for a free estimate. Want help troubleshooting your system? Ask one of our experts for help.

formatting link

(No affliation - found by Google!)

Reply to
Robert Green

My furnace/AC is 17 years old. Day before yesterday I had water all over the basement floor. It's got 3 drains that go to 3/4 PVC. I took off the exhaust vent to get at the panel covering the evaporator and verified the evap trough wasn't draining. Nice and clean in there. Surprised me. Cut the PVC on the vertical and taped a hose to it leading to the sump. Fixed. I'll replace most of the PVC later. There's about 35' of it.

GM has been very good to me. Never bought a new one and I never bought one with heated seats. Only one I didn't grow fond of was a '72 Nova. Otherwise I've run them to 150-180k miles with minimal issues, and never had one strand me. They all rusted out. But if I was a new car buyer, I'd probably go Hyundai. Three of my daughters bought Santa Fe's.

Reply to
Vic Smith

FWIW, I didn't write that, just quoted it.

Why am I not surprised that you come from a long line of "siccers" who can't be conned easily (or for long). Good for her. As yes, I have no desire to go back to the past. It was a whole lot worse in almost every dimension. Remember the hippie era when so many people took off to live in communes? I'll bet very few exist because people just don't seem to take to anarchistic socialism naturally.

Reply to
Robert Green

I read this and said to myself "16's"? Sixteen what? What an odd name for a new car model. Then I realized it's next year. Oy. Brain freeze.

My wife now drives a Honda but wants to trade it in for something more comfortable. She reported she had read in Autoweek that all the German cars she was interested in (BMW and Audi) were burning oil right off the showroom floor. This site claims it's normal because of high heat and thin oil in modern engines but owners aren't too happy with adding a can of oil every month.

formatting link

Here's the link to the Consumer Reports article referenced by Autoweek:

formatting link

Reply to
Robert Green

You immediately jump to the conclusion that it has to be fraud. How about if the techs know from experience that the residential systems today are such pieces of crap that once they have a leak, it's just not worth fixing? That if they fix it, it's not cheap and the system typically winds up needing to be replaced soon anyway? Not saying that I know that's the case, but it's a possibility. People here seem to agree that while systems used to typically last 25+ years, today 15 is more typical.

There you go again with further expanding it into deliberate sabotage, which there was absolutely zero evidence of in this case.

Reply to
trader_4

Not that you asked, but....

Some times, you can blow the crud out with air compressor, blow gun, and a towel to seal where the air gun goes in.

It's wise to make a way to pour your own water in, and once or twice a year to pour in hot water with a bunch of bleach.

Reply to
Stormin Mormon

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind before I do anything else.

Reply to
Vic Smith

HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.