Interesting conversation about providing power to a backyard shed

[Jim Joyce]

This is at my sister's house, where she's having a pool put in. I'm talking to the pool guy, the owner of the company. The pool needs 120v power for the pump, the jets, and the lights, and 240v for the heater. It went like this:

Me: Since you're pulling 240 for the heater, does your conduit have room to pull a separate 240v circuit for the shed?

Him: 220 for the shed? What do you need 220 for? Do you mean 120?

Me: Well, 240 would be good, just in case we ever need it, since it's only one additional conductor. It makes sense to pull it now, rather than trying to add it later if we need it. We may never need 240, but it would be available, just in case.

Him: I don't think I have room in the conduit for all of that. 220 is 4 conductors and 120 is 3, so that's 7 conductors just for the shed, let alone what I need for the pump, the heater, and everything else.

Me: No, I don't need a separate run for 120, just a single 240 circuit would be fine. I'll split it into 120 at the panel* in the shed.

*not yet installed, but I'll do that soon

Him: Are you an electrician?

Me: No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently*.

*weak attempt at a joke, because this isn't going well.

Him: Well, I'll run 220 to the shed for you, but it's going to be up to you to figure out how to reduce it down to 120 for whatever you need in there. I expect you'll have some trouble with that.

Me: No, it's easy. The two hots are 240, but either of the hots with the neutral gives me 120. Super easy.

Him: (completely unconvinced, so I continue)

Me: I'll need 10ga single strand wire, THWN, in black, white, red, and green, and a 30A breaker. If you have a GFCI breaker, that would be even better.

Him: If you say so.

The next day...

Him: You sure about this? If you need 120 I can upgrade the conduit, but once I glue everything up it'll be too late.

Me: I'm sure.

Him: Did you say you were an electrician?

Me: No, I was never an electrician.

Him: I just don't want this blowing back on me, but if you say you want

220 and not 120, then that's what I'll do. (walks away, shaking his head)

Later, his electrician shows up to add a sub-panel next to the service entrance (main panel).

Poolguy: Hey Stevie, he wants 220 run to his shed. Is he gonna have trouble with that?

Stevie: Looks at me, I'm smiling, looks back at Poolguy and says, "Nope, he'll be fine."

***

I just thought that was interesting, especially his continued use of 220 versus my 240 or his skepticism that I could wrangle 120 from 240. All of that was at my sister's house over the past few days.

It follows a very similar conversation I had a year and a half ago with a guy who was quoting an outdoor kitchen for me. I wanted multiple weather-protected receptacles so we talked about where power would come from. One option was the 240v circuit for my shed, where I said we could tap 120v for the WP receptacles. His response was, "Oooohhh, that's unfortunate. We only need 120v for this job. 220 isn't helpful."

[trader_4]

First thing I noticed was the part about 240V for the pool heater and 120V for the pump. I guess 240V for the heater could make sense if it's a heat pump, but around here we use gas because it's most cost effective and that only requires 120V for the ignition. Gas is so costly to heat a pool that very few actually use it. And we use 240V for the pump, you get slightly lower loss and pull half the amps for conductor sizing. So we run 240V to the pump,

120V to the heater. I hope he's better at the pool part than with the electricity, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's not.

[Jim Joyce]

<big snip>

Yes, the heater is an electric heat pump.

Well, it's a day or two later and he's done with the plumbing and electrical work. He's waiting on the inspections to be completed before he buries everything and starts the landscaping phase.

The parts that I don't like are the fact that the plumbing will be buried about 6-8 inches below grade, if that. It's not that it ever freezes here, but rather that I don't think that's deep enough to protect against accidental digging by the homeowner.

The electrical conduits are placed above the plumbing pipes, so if the pipes are 6-8 inches below grade, the electrical conduit will be about

2-4 inches below grade. I could be wrong, but I thought electrical conduit was supposed to be buried at least 12 inches below grade. The pool guy says he never heard of any requirement, and says he always passes the inspection so it must be OK.

Grrr....

[Ed Pawlowski]

According to Google Does outdoor electrical conduit have to be buried? Any wiring placed inside intermediate metal or rigid metal conduits will require at least six inches of ground cover. On the other hand, wiring protected in a PVC conduit will require a minimum of 18 inches of cover. Wiring lower than 30 volts must be buried at a depth of at least six inches.

Exterior water supply system piping shall be installed not less than 6 inches (152 mm) below the frost line and not less than 12 inches (305 mm) below grade.

[micky]

I don't get the joke.

Both of those are pretty funny.

But really, if you're going to have 120, 220, and 240, you'll need 11 conductors.

And have you discussed with him what grade of water you'll need?

[Ed Pawlowski]

Old Holiday Inn commercial. Staying there makes you smart.

[micky]

I've never heard that one. No wonder I didn't get it. But he might have.

[Cindy Hamilton]

It was a whole series of commercials. Here's one:

[bud--]

That is what the NEC says. I would ask the inspector what the requirement is, and if 4" passes whether the NEC is in effect (it might not be). I think a few places requirements come from insurance companies. (The NEC originally came from insurance companies.)

Plumbing codes are less standardized than electrical, but I would be displeased with 8".

[micky]

It was exciting. Until the end, which was a let-down. All in all it was average. Oh, I had to watch it aecond time to realize the guy making the decisions was the one with the tour group, so he was smart. I'm not good with faces, etc. So that ties it together.

Thanks.

[Jim Joyce]

It's from a long-running TV advertising campaign.

[Jim Joyce]

The inspection turned out to be only for plumbing, and the inspector signed off without going to the back yard. As bad as that may be, the lack of electrical inspection tells me that the pool guy didn't pull an electrical permit. Now, the dirt is back in place and everything is buried. Just don't kick the dirt or you'll risk exposing the conduit.