I'm not a gardener but I planted some seeds of food eaten from the kitchen (pears, apples, lemons, oranges, avocados, watermelon, pomegranate, etc).
I put the soil in typical plastic plant containers but I don't know if I'm supposed to pack the results tightly or loosely or mediumly. If I pack them, with a mallet I can easily triple the amount of soil and even if I compact them with my fist, I could easily double the amount of soil, so compaction certainly makes a huge difference in soil volume.
There must be an optimum amount of compaction though, for soil volume and for water sponging I would think that the experts already know about.
What's the rule on compaction when you dig the soil out of the ground with a shovel and then when you fill a dozen of these quart to half gallon sized black plastic planting containers?
Those seeds all have fairly different germination techniques; for example, avocado pits are commonly sprouted in water. Sounds like you're experimenting, to see what grows and what doesn't.
Depends on the seeds, soil and importance of success. If you're using natural soil you might let water do the compacting. Flood the pot of soil, push the seed into the resulting mud and flood the pot again. That's how nature compacts soil and will give some hint how the seeds might fare on their own in your area.
If you really want the seeds to grow, David's approach is customary. There's much less risk of waterlogging if you use a porous mix, pack it till it's just immobile when flooded and make sure all liquid drains in a few minutes. Very few seeds will germinate if submerged.
I think waterlogging is the biggest objection to using natural soil in pots. It's too easy for the water to get trapped in the pot, especially if the pot is plastic.
Waterlogging and/or drying out are the two commonest reasons for germination failure. It doesn't matter what soil or compost you use, or even how compact it is, if you follow this guidance:
Put the soil/compost in the pot. If using soil, just fill to within 1/2" of the top; if using compost, fill to the top and press down 1/2". Put the pot in a bucket and fill with water to the soil/compost level. Leave for an hour (some peat-based composts, if dry, can be very slow to take up water again. A drop of washing-up liquid in the water can help). Remove pot and allow to drain for 15 minutes. Add seed(s), and either push into the compost until well covered or place on surface and cover with a little moist compost. Put pot in a polythene bag and seal the bag. Just keep an eye on the pot every week or so to see if germination has taken place. With the bag sealed, you won't have to worry about under/overwatering. Once germination has taken place, remove the pot from the bag.
Though I have had little problem with planting, iirc, I have to reread this thread.
My big takeway is that there are two groups I didn't know about, rec.gardens and alt.agriculture.fruit. That's more important to me than any one thread.
Esp. after alt.home.lawn.garden faded away, I'm not sure when.
Well, I didn't say I was an experienced gardener, did I?
I knew of the avocado in toothpick on top of a drinking glass method but some of the avocados that I threw will nilly on the ground grew over the years (just in the wrong spots), so now I'm trying to containerize them as transplanting always kills them (same soil packing question though).
This is a generic question in that we can assume the seeds are "kitchen seeds" since I'm no expert. I first googled but that just made me dangerous.
I can snap a photo of my test bed if you're interested in seeing it. With respect to compaction, as far as I can tell from googling, "air spaces" are death zones to plants, aren't they?
Google told me that plants don't get their nutrients from air but from water but even then the water has to be the right kind of water.
Google told me there are three kinds of water in the soil profile. <1> Hygroscopic, aka unavailable <2> Capillary, aka available <3> Saturation, aka gravitational, aka field capacity (unavailable)
Field capacity, google said, was when there was just the right mix of soil particles and capillary water because plants don't "breathe" so much as "drink" their nutrients (says google anyway).
I first filled with "natural soil" (the stuff all around me), and then filled with water and hit it with a stick (stokes law). That dropped the level an inch or more in and of itself.
Then I compacted with my fist and that could drop the level in half if I wanted to do that.
My question is really all about how much compaction is normally needed?
You have a good point if this was in the ground where the soil has already reached a steady state of compaction. But does it work when you just dug the soil out of the ground (so that it's no longer in any compaction state)?
The "mix" is whatever soil I dig out of the ground. The porosity is what I'm trying to ascertain.
Since plants drink (they don't breathe as far as I can tell), I don't want any air but what I want is water that is "available" (capillary water).
But how do you compact the soil to make sure the water is all capillary?
You have a good point there where I think I am waterlogging them too much. I will stop that.
No, but it sounds like you're trying to become one. That takes experimentation. Using your particular starting materials.
Avocados have impressive taproots. I've started several in water, then transplanted to containers made of grow tubes a couple feet deep. Then they went into the garden the following year. After eleven years only one has bloomed out of eight germinations and five survivors.
An avocado on toothpicks in a glass of water illustrates the requirement neatly: Mechanical support, water contact and air contact. The layout over the surface of the seed can be fairly variable, else plants using seeds would be extinct.
Kitchen seeds are not special, except that they're likely hybrids that won't have much vigor and certainly won't breed true.
Air is good, water is good. Seeds need both.
Enough to support the plant mechanically, supply capillary water and at least some air contact. As in the avocado pit on toothpics in a glass of water.
From the seed's point of view porosity doesn't matter. It needs water, mechanical support and air.
Just drain off the standing liquid.
Won't help me, but it might let others get a hint what you're doing. Better, disperse a sample of soil in water and dump it into a cylindrical glass jar. Let it settle overnight. Photograph it in good light with a ruler adjacent. Just possibly you're dealing with some unusual soil.
What is your garden soil like? Sandy? Clay? Black loam?
What is your climate?
What conditions are the transplants under while they are growing?
Do you harden off the transplants before sticking them in the ground?
Large ones, yes. Once the root hairs grow into air, they dry up and die. The same is the case for soil saturated with water, though.
Aerated soil is necessary for bacterial growth, and it gives water a place to "hang out" until the plant needs it.
Taken to the extreme, concrete is extremely well compacted and plants won't grow in it.
Push down on the soil lightly with your hands. Don't tamp it down too much.
Garden soil is generally not recommended for starting plants in pots, nor for growing anything in pots long-term. "Potting soil" is not just a money grab for the corporation that owns Miracle-Gro.
If you insist on using your garden soil, mix in some compost to "fluff it up" a bit.
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