How difficult is it to "build" a door?

[DerbyDad03]

Rather than super glue, why not just fill the holes partially with epoxy and then run the lags in? Let it all cure together.

No need to drill twice.

Just a thought.

[trader4]

Derby, did you see the pics Puddin posted in the other thread about the door? I just found them and saw them for the first time:

It looks to me like what's there is a normal door rough opening AND JAMB. He said the door was attached directly to the framing 2 x4's, but I don't see that. It looks like the door is attached to the door jamb, as you'd expect.

So, doing the math, he says the door is 32". From the pic I'm guessing the door jamb is 1". That gives a rough opening of 34". A pre-hung 32 x 80 door would fit in there. At least width wise.....

See what you think....

We're lacking most of the basic information here and I think also having a problem communicating about door. I think part of it is that he believes constructing a new door is going to be easier and substantially cheaper than installing a pre-hung. And I think you and I agree that he's underestimating the difficulty of building a door and getting it hung properly and overestimating the difficulty of installing a pre-hung. Price wise, the material cost is going to eat up a lot of the cost of a $100 pre-hung. And the finished result of the pre-hung is likely to be superior too.

Also, seeing the pics, it seems the door that is there now isn't in that bad shape and could be fixed using some of the suggestion made in the other thread. That would seem to me to be a LOT easier than building a new door and likely to give a better finished look. It would surely be the lowest cost option too. It's probably what I would do given what can be seen from the pics.

[Puddin' Man]

1.) 2.) If all I had to depend on were your construction practices, I would go pre-hung.

3.) The door -and- it's lack of framing worked OK, as is, for the 27 years I've been here. In that context, I have no need for standard construction practices. If there were a problem with my front door, I'd go pre-hung.

The problem is particular to the door. If I can rectify and re-hang (or replace and re-hang), thats what I want to do.

Anybody understand??? :-)

Thx, P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

[trader4]

I think we all understand that the problem is particular to the door. Derby and I suggested a pre-hung because you were proposing to build a new door. IMO, and I believe Derby agrees, it's easier and probably about the same cost to just replace the whole thing with a pre-hung. And in most cases, if replacing the door, I would go with a pre-hung because it's easier, faster, than screwing around and trying to make a new door fit the old jamb, whatever is there.

Given the pics you posted in the other thread, I don't understand why you don't take some of the suggestions made there to just repair the existing door. It does not appear to be in that bad shape. It's probably what I would do. It would be very cheap and easy.

If it comes to replacing the door, then given what I can see in the new pictures I would do one of two things. If you can live with a 30" wide door, that should fit in there, at least width wise. The existing door is 32", perfect for a pre-hung 30" That's why a pre-hung works and the doors you're looking at won't fit. It only depends on a rough opening size.

Yet when that was suggested you say that won;t work, with just a "No". So, it's not clear what the fitment problem with that is.

The other choice would be to go with a new 32" door. The framing is completely exposed on the inside of the garage. You could take out the existing door framing and re-frame it to the larger opening. That seems like an easier path to me, than building and hanging a new door. You're dealing with 2 x 4's, shims, and some trim molding.

You're free to do what you want. I just think you're under estimating the difficulty of building and hanging a door that looks anywhere near as good as a pre-hung. And over estimating the difficulty of putting in a pre-hung.

And I'm not sure I get the idea of running around looking for salvage doors. Any of those are going to require re-work, unless you think the lock holes are going to match. Yeah, that can be fixed, but why would you do that instead of just fixing the old door that apparently only has minor problems? Or at least trying that first?

[dadiOH]

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After looking at the pix again, do the middle rail too. But two lags rather than three.

[dadiOH]

He could but he'd need to leave it clamped up for a couple of days while the epoxy cured.

[DerbyDad03]

We are no longer sure what the OP wants.

We've suggested repairing the existing door, trying to find a used door, using a thicker door (if there is no jamb, why is that an issue?) or installing a prehung door, the way it should have been done years ago.

Nothing seems to meet his wants (notice I didn't say his *needs*).

Hurting Hair is an accurate description of how I feel at this point.

[TomR]

I think that with the added information and the additional photos that you provided, I am starting to get a better idea of what you have now, what you want to do, and what your options may be.

From the photos above, I can see that you are correct that the door hinges are just attached directly to the double 2x4's that make up the door frame.

Also, you are concerned that because it is so hot where you are, you were thinking maybe you could make a new door in the basement rather than repairing the door in the heat. However, I think that whether you build a new door, buy a replacement door, or repair the existing door, you will need to spend some time installing or fixing the door in the heat -- or you could wait for cooler weather.

You also said that you are not too concerned about aesthetics as long as the door works.

Option 1) If you decide to buy a new 32x80 door, I think you could install it even if it is 1.75 inches thick. Here's why. If one looks at these photos that you provided before:

the trim that is around the door on the outside (I forget what it is called) could probably easily be carefully removed and then moved out toward the outside another half inch and tacked back in place. That would let your new door be flush on the inside and the moved trim will make it flush with the trim on the outside. If you do this option, buy a wood or fiberglass door so you can trim it to size to fit the opening if the opening is not quite square.

Option 2) Do what others said and try re-screwing and re-gluing things in place to try to get and keep the sag out. It's an old door, and I'm not sure how well that will work, but it might.

Option 3) Leave the door where it is, but put a shim or two under it and along the side to get the sag out so it will be secured in place the way you want it. When doing that add some glue -- not sure what type, maybe exterior waterproof Locktite or something like that -- and re-glue the seams etc. Then, with the door closed, shimmed, not sagging, and secured in place (while the glue is drying), screw a piece of plywood onto the bottom half of the door from the inside. I think 1/4-inch plywood would be strong enough. The plywood would be cut to fit the bottom half of the door only, and maybe do a cut-out in the plywood so that it goes around the doorknob. Screw the plywood into the cross rails (or whatever they are called) and the two vertical side rails. The purpose of the plywood is just to provide cross-bracing so the door cannot shift out of square and sag again. The same effect could be achieved by putting diagonal angle braces on the inside of the door on the lower half, but I think a solid piece of plywood will look better and work better. The plywood will keep the door from shifting from a rectangle into a parallelogram. Then, of course, paint the plywood.

If it were me, I would do option 3, at least for now.

Good luck.

[trader4]

That's a very good point. I was kind of dancing around that when giving the reasons to use a pre-hung door. It makes it easy to get a perfect door that is square, closes properly, etc. I also said that he is underestimating the effort in building a door and HANGING it. The above though really nails it. It's a 50 year old framing job. Has he even put a square and level to it?

That's about where I'm at too. I just had visions of him spending a lot of $$ and time, screwing around, building a door. Then he goes to hang it and finds out the framing is out of square. Then he spends hours trying to make it fit that opening. Or that it warps 6 months later. I'm not a big fan of re-inventing the wheel when suitable solutions are readily available.

Best advice I can give at this point is either fix the old door or look at videos of how doors are installed.

[clare]

The end grain wood would hold well enough to clamp itself until the epoxy hardened - no clamping or jigging required.

[Vic Smith]

It's an unfinished garage. Mine is the same as his, except it's a solid door. I don't know where you get the idea framing isn't normally square, or doubled 2x4 studs and headers "sag." And those are bigger actual size 2x4's then what they cut now. My circa '59 is still square. A pre-hung door is what would look out of place in an unfinished garage. He never posted a decent close-up of the door stiles, or hinges. Loosened stile-to-rails makes a door sag. A loosened upper hinge makes a door sag. Anybody can check with a simple square. Every sagging door I've fixed was fixed by resetting the hinges tight because the screws had pulled out. A drill, dowels and glue.

Yep. Seeing the door, it's a nice one, and I'd try to keep it, even if I had to take it apart. Don't know if he can do it though.

[DerbyDad03]

The RO for the side door in my 1956 unfinished garage is not square. The RO for my front entry door is not square.

That's what shims are for.

So what? Mine are too. How does size enter into discussion regarding square?

Good for you. Seriously.

Looks just fine in mine. Out of place? Not in the least.

I recently replaced mine but the original 1956 door had a jamb also.

The RO was obviously framed for a door with a jamb.

[Puddin' Man]

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Thanks for pretty much sorting all that out.

Think about it. The old 1.25" door is on a true 1.25" hinge. If I mount the hinge on the back of a 1.75" door, will the other side of the door even clear the jamb (actually the pair of 2x4's)?

This is looking more likely all the time. Check back tomorrow or the next day. :-)

I tried something similar months ago. Shimmed the door up as far as it would go, then mounted plate steel reinforcers on the back of door secured with deck screws. It helped for a while, then sagged back. It would hold better with big piece of ply, but likely would add too much weight, door and/or hinges might not take it well.

'Tis a work in progress. I'll report back.

Thanks, P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

[dadiOH]

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After still another look, ALL the rail/stile joints have failed. Can't see the top ones but they are undoubtedly bad too. To do the job right, all the joints should be fastened.

[trader4]

+1 to that. Framing members are in fact frequently not perfectly square or even straight. Just take a look at a typical 2x4 in the pile at HD. Even if you took extra care to make the ones for a door frame perfectly square when nailing, you still have variations in the 2 x 4's themselves that make them unsuitable compared to a shimmed door jamb. Then you have to make the rough opening a precision opening. It would be like requiring that a kitchen cabinet cutout be precise to 1/16" all the way around to fit an oven instead of making it a rough opening that makes it easy and allows for tolerance. That's why the door jamb, plus shims are used. And why most doors are sold as pre-hung, to make the installation easy and relatively foolproof.

+1

I don't see why a pre-hung door would look out of place in a 1950's detached garage either. From the pics, this garage already has vinyl siding, what about that?

If he can't repair the original door, which doesn't look bad at all, then I seriously doubt any door that he builds from scratch is going to look better in that garage than a pre-hung. That's why we presented a pre-hung as an option. But from all I've seen and heard I think repairing the existing door is the best option.

[trader4]

If it doesn't clear the jamb, then I guess per his instructions that's why he said to buy a wood one so that you can trim it.

I know you don't want to hear it. But for the peanut gallery, some would say what you just pointed out is another advantage of a pre-hung door. It's hinged, fits correctly, is perfecty square, and will clear the jamb when you open it.

[DerbyDad03]

Obviously, I'm not standing inside your garage, but when I "think about it", I don't think about using the existing hinges, I think about using the correct hinges for a standard door thickness.

You have stops on the exterior. The face of the exterior of any thickness door is going to still hit those stops when the door is closed. If the door is 1.75" thick or 4" thick, the exterior face is not going to move. It will be the face of the *interior* of a thicker door that will simply extend further into the garage.

If you do not have room on the 2 x 4 framing (To avoid any more confusion, I would not call that a jamb) for wider hinges to mount, scab an extension onto the interior face of the framing to extend it into the room. Use glue and screws to secure the extension.

Your other option is to remove the exterior stops and move them outward so that the interior face of the door stays within the existing framing.

I can't view the photos from the machine I'm currently on, so If I'm missing something major here, I apologize. If I recall correctly, the exterior stops are just some strips of wood nailed to the framing. Pry them off, hang the new/used thicker door and reinstall (or replace with narrower) stops in proper location.

[trader4]

I think what he's worrying about is not the stops. It's the clearance when opening due to increased thickness. Imagine a 1" door hung in a 6" wide door jamb, no stops. Let's further assume it just has minimum clearance on the side with no hinges so it opens without hitting. Now, make that door 3" thick without changing any other dimensions. While it will fit in the same opening, it will not open because as you open it, as it pivots, at some point the side without the hinges will hit the jamb due to the increased thickness

But, I don't understand why a guy that is proposing to build an entire door from scratch thinks this is a big deal. All you'd have to do is remove some material from the side or sides of the door to get the necessary clearance. As I pointed out and I think you agree with, this is another example of an advantage of a pre-hung door.

[DerbyDad03]

OK, now I'm missing something. Maybe it's that whole "spatial reasoning" thing.

If the exterior face of the door is up against the stops, why does it matter how thick the slab is? As soon as the door begins to open, the slab begins to move away from the frame/jamb.

Take a look at the interior of any closed door near where you are are. Imagine screwing a 4 x 4 to the interior face along the lockset edge. Now you have really thick "door", right?

How is that extra thickness on the interior side going to prevent the door from opening?

[TomR]

If, because the door is 1.75" instead of 1.25", it hits the jamb/frome/whatever, you would have to trim it or plane it a little to make it fit.

Okay.

I have done this before and it does work. You could probably even use a piece of luan. It's the big square piece that prevents the sagging. Smaller pieces -- like pieces of metal -- put too much stress on the small area of the small piece of metal and probably didn't work for that reason. In fact, I'd bet that you could put a large square of sheet metal instead of the plywood or luan and it would work. The wieight of any of these will be minimal and I think it will solve your problem.

Okay. Good luck.